We got it all wrong: the finale was a J**E official closure!

[Matarreyes]

Yes, you heard me right. After sleeping on the episode, I am totally sure that was what we were supposed to see, but due to all the twists the writers gave us, we were unable to correctly process the scenes and realise it. Now hear me out, and sorry for the long post!

Let´s loose our stubborn focus on "Sawyer and Kate love each other and need to jump into each other arms already". They also love (albeit less) the people they spent the last 3 years with. Sawyer isn’t a con man anymore, and Kate isn´t a wh*re to be sleeping with people they don´t give a damn about. By the end of the season, both Suliet and Jate are having problems, but haven´t split in an official, TV series, closure-style way. That´s the reason “season 5 hasn´t given us Skate on a golden plate”. Sawyer and Kate had to close their respective chapters by themselves, before moving on to something different together. And in the Finale, they finally did it!

Now here is my take on the Jate evolution this season:
Initial status: going strong enough for the two to be engaged.
Cause of fracture: Kate keeping her promise to Sawyer (Skatey translation: because she loved Sawyer more) .
Moment of fracture: Jack telling Kate he wants to erase their past because enough of it was misery.
Still holding on because of Kate saying an horrified NO to Jack and running to get somebody stop him from deleting their lives. I think we Skaters got the "Kate turning on Jack" scene wrong. We cheered because we thought she was deserting him, but she was still trying to save her relationship. Why? The same reason Sawyer was trying to preserve his: she cared for Jack as much as he cared for Juliet. Sawyer was ready to leave the island with Juliet. Kate was ready to get Sawyer to beat Jack senseless to stop Jack from breaking up with her. Silly noble people.
Jate´s official closure: Kate finally agreeing with Jack to erase the past. I was so pissed off at her at the moment, and couldn´t make any sense of her YES. Now I understand. She finally agreed with Jack on the fact that their relationship was all misery, and supported his decision to let it go. Pretty obvious once we slow down our poor Skater hearts.
Jate´s nauseous final display of affection: Kate´s way of saying good bye. Note how she reminds Jack of the first time they met? It´s because she is leaving him, you silly people. Girls get mushy over breakups. I remember a time when I gave a boyfriend the news I wanted us to be done. I hugged him afterwards real real tight, because I knew I had hurt him. Hugs and wound-healing mean nothing when the person is going to say “yes, go ahead make it so we never met each other”.

Here is my take on the Suliet evolution this season:
Cause of fracture: Sawyer´s unconscious looks at Kate (note: I think it´s totally canon now that he loved Juliet very very much, just not as much as Kate, and it was proven by the Rose/Bernard scene when he couldn´t check himself in time).
Moment of fracture: Juliet getting jealous and doubtful.
Suliet still holding on because of Sawyer wanting to do the right thing.
Suliet official closure: Juliet saying that even if two people are in love, it does not mean they will be together. And that she knows he´d always be with her, if she let him, implying that the right thing would be to let him go. Sawyer doesn´t give her any weird YESes, but he gives up trying to kill Jack at this point, meaning he finally admits she is right.

See how similar the situations really are? One member of the pair (Jack and Juliet) understands that he/she has lost the other one (Kate and James), and wants a way out by jumping on the bomb train. The other member stubbornly fights against this solution until he/she reluctantly agrees and gives his/her EX-partner what we could call a good bye moment. They just do their closures in a different way. Sawyer (being a guy) calms down for Juliet and stops kicking Jack´s ass (he had probably longed to do that since season 1). Kate (being a woman) patches her ex up one last time.
That´s why Jate and Suliet were looking at each other before the blast. They were saying good bye to the person they have just totally and irremediably broken up with. Pretty legit, IMO

Fastforward to Season 6: a broken down Sawyer and a sympathetic Kate, both already officially relationship-less before the Juliet disaster struck (therefore not each other second choices), are "free to be you and me". What do you think guys? Makes much sense to me. At the very least, this should cheer you up!

[MikeySSC]

Or let's Occams Razor this bitch...

In all likelyhood, Off-Island Jate was something that the writers had to get out of the way. And even then, what was the elephant in the room? Skate.

Now that they're back.. what's the elephant in the room? the one thing that the show hasn't fully explored/closed throughout S5? Skate.

What's the storyline the writers have been gearing up for? Sure as hell isn't Jate.

I think it's pretty obvious that Skate was destined to return sooner or later. Yes, S5 was a steaming pile of awkward and strange Jate encounters (lackluster ad. nauseum btw). But it the show dictates itself, and all the Jater spin and whinging in the world wouldn't be able to cancel out the Skate lingering in the room. It's a matter of how the writers choose to go with it that concerns me. I really really really dont want the Suliet stuff negated.

[Katie27]

Yes, you heard me right. After sleeping on the episode, I am totally sure that was what we were supposed to see, but due to all the twists the writers gave us, we were unable to correctly process the scenes and realise it. Now hear me out, and sorry for the long post!

Let´s loose our stubborn focus on "Sawyer and Kate love each other and need to jump into each other arms already". They also love (albeit less) the people they spent the last 3 years with. Sawyer isn’t a con man anymore, and Kate isn´t a wh*re to be sleeping with people they don´t give a damn about. By the end of the season, both Suliet and Jate are having problems, but haven´t split in an official, TV series, closure-style way. That´s the reason “season 5 hasn´t given us Skate on a golden plate”. Sawyer and Kate had to close their respective chapters by themselves, before moving on to something different together. And in the Finale, they finally did it!

Now here is my take on the Jate evolution this season:
Initial status: going strong enough for the two to be engaged.
Cause of fracture: Kate keeping her promise to Sawyer (Skatey translation: because she loved Sawyer more) .
Moment of fracture: Jack telling Kate he wants to erase their past because enough of it was misery.
Still holding on because of Kate saying an horrified NO to Jack and running to get somebody stop him from deleting their lives. I think we Skaters got the "Kate turning on Jack" scene wrong. We cheered because we thought she was deserting him, but she was still trying to save her relationship. Why? The same reason Sawyer was trying to preserve his: she cared for Jack as much as he cared for Juliet. Sawyer was ready to leave the island with Juliet. Kate was ready to get Sawyer to beat Jack senseless to stop Jack from breaking up with her. Silly noble people.
Jate´s official closure: Kate finally agreeing with Jack to erase the past. I was so pissed off at her at the moment, and couldn´t make any sense of her YES. Now I understand. She finally agreed with Jack on the fact that their relationship was all misery, and supported his decision to let it go. Pretty obvious once we slow down our poor Skater hearts.
Jate´s nauseous final display of affection: Kate´s way of saying good bye. Note how she reminds Jack of the first time they met? It´s because she is leaving him, you silly people. Girls get mushy over breakups. I remember a time when I gave a boyfriend the news I wanted us to be done. I hugged him afterwards real real tight, because I knew I had hurt him. Hugs and wound-healing mean nothing when the person is going to say “yes, go ahead make it so we never met each other”.

Here is my take on the Suliet evolution this season:
Cause of fracture: Sawyer´s unconscious looks at Kate (note: I think it´s totally canon now that he loved Juliet very very much, just not as much as Kate, and it was proven by the Rose/Bernard scene when he couldn´t check himself in time).
Moment of fracture: Juliet getting jealous and doubtful.
Suliet still holding on because of Sawyer wanting to do the right thing.
Suliet official closure: Juliet saying that even if two people are in love, it does not mean they will be together. And that she knows he´d always be with her, if she let him, implying that the right thing would be to let him go. Sawyer doesn´t give her any weird YESes, but he gives up trying to kill Jack at this point, meaning he finally admits she is right.

See how similar the situations really are? One member of the pair (Jack and Juliet) understands that he/she has lost the other one (Kate and James), and wants a way out by jumping on the bomb train. The other member stubbornly fights against this solution until he/she reluctantly agrees and gives his/her EX-partner what we could call a good bye moment. They just do their closures in a different way. Sawyer (being a guy) calms down for Juliet and stops kicking Jack´s ass (he had probably longed to do that since season 1). Kate (being a woman) patches her ex up one last time.
That´s why Jate and Suliet were looking at each other before the blast. They were saying good bye to the person they have just totally and irremediably broken up with. Pretty legit, IMO

Fastforward to Season 6: a broken down Sawyer and a sympathetic Kate, both already officially relationship-less before the Juliet disaster struck (therefore not each other second choices), are "free to be you and me". What do you think guys? Makes much sense to me. At the very least, this should cheer you up!

:w00t:

Yes. I agree with you completely. This makes total and utter sense.

[naeskbsfan]

Yes, you heard me right. After sleeping on the episode, I am totally sure that was what we were supposed to see, but due to all the twists the writers gave us, we were unable to correctly process the scenes and realise it. Now hear me out, and sorry for the long post!

Let´s loose our stubborn focus on "Sawyer and Kate love each other and need to jump into each other arms already". They also love (albeit less) the people they spent the last 3 years with. Sawyer isn’t a con man anymore, and Kate isn´t a wh*re to be sleeping with people they don´t give a damn about. By the end of the season, both Suliet and Jate are having problems, but haven´t split in an official, TV series, closure-style way. That´s the reason “season 5 hasn´t given us Skate on a golden plate”. Sawyer and Kate had to close their respective chapters by themselves, before moving on to something different together. And in the Finale, they finally did it!

Now here is my take on the Jate evolution this season:
Initial status: going strong enough for the two to be engaged.
Cause of fracture: Kate keeping her promise to Sawyer (Skatey translation: because she loved Sawyer more) .
Moment of fracture: Jack telling Kate he wants to erase their past because enough of it was misery.
Still holding on because of Kate saying an horrified NO to Jack and running to get somebody stop him from deleting their lives. I think we Skaters got the "Kate turning on Jack" scene wrong. We cheered because we thought she was deserting him, but she was still trying to save her relationship. Why? The same reason Sawyer was trying to preserve his: she cared for Jack as much as he cared for Juliet. Sawyer was ready to leave the island with Juliet. Kate was ready to get Sawyer to beat Jack senseless to stop Jack from breaking up with her. Silly noble people.
Jate´s official closure: Kate finally agreeing with Jack to erase the past. I was so pissed off at her at the moment, and couldn´t make any sense of her YES. Now I understand. She finally agreed with Jack on the fact that their relationship was all misery, and supported his decision to let it go. Pretty obvious once we slow down our poor Skater hearts.
Jate´s nauseous final display of affection: Kate´s way of saying good bye. Note how she reminds Jack of the first time they met? It´s because she is leaving him, you silly people. Girls get mushy over breakups. I remember a time when I gave a boyfriend the news I wanted us to be done. I hugged him afterwards real real tight, because I knew I had hurt him. Hugs and wound-healing mean nothing when the person is going to say “yes, go ahead make it so we never met each other”.

Here is my take on the Suliet evolution this season:
Cause of fracture: Sawyer´s unconscious looks at Kate (note: I think it´s totally canon now that he loved Juliet very very much, just not as much as Kate, and it was proven by the Rose/Bernard scene when he couldn´t check himself in time).
Moment of fracture: Juliet getting jealous and doubtful.
Suliet still holding on because of Sawyer wanting to do the right thing.
Suliet official closure: Juliet saying that even if two people are in love, it does not mean they will be together. And that she knows he´d always be with her, if she let him, implying that the right thing would be to let him go. Sawyer doesn´t give her any weird YESes, but he gives up trying to kill Jack at this point, meaning he finally admits she is right.

See how similar the situations really are? One member of the pair (Jack and Juliet) understands that he/she has lost the other one (Kate and James), and wants a way out by jumping on the bomb train. The other member stubbornly fights against this solution until he/she reluctantly agrees and gives his/her EX-partner what we could call a good bye moment. They just do their closures in a different way. Sawyer (being a guy) calms down for Juliet and stops kicking Jack´s ass (he had probably longed to do that since season 1). Kate (being a woman) patches her ex up one last time.
That´s why Jate and Suliet were looking at each other before the blast. They were saying good bye to the person they have just totally and irremediably broken up with. Pretty legit, IMO

Fastforward to Season 6: a broken down Sawyer and a sympathetic Kate, both already officially relationship-less before the Juliet disaster struck (therefore not each other second choices), are "free to be you and me". What do you think guys? Makes much sense to me. At the very least, this should cheer you up!

EXACTLY!i know i posted that was the reason both recent relationships were looking at eachother!why didn't skate look at eachother?their past,there love for eachother was about to be erased?IMO there is a reason for this.because the jate & suliet pairngs needed to be closed.jack said that it was too late.juliet told that the reason she wants to go along with jacks plan.is because she knows eventually she'll end up losing him.& mikey i totally agree with you too hun!i really don't need cheering up.because i will never give up on my ship because the facts are there.& trust me.in order to be an epic couple you need to be seperated.torn apart or to make sacrafices.that is exactly what happened with skate.i have faith that the writers are gonna bring skate back in full force next season.to show that their love will be the one that will make it to the end.next season we'll get final declarations & everything else coming together with the island mythology.trust me jate is done!& so is suliet!even though i hate that juliet had to die.or maybe she's still alive.but the fact is that skates story still needs to be told!the only ship that has not been rushed!let the jate fans cheer on for now & have their happy moment!because come 2010 skate is gonna make those walls come crumbling down!

[TiannaLys]

Matarreyes ILY :giggle: you totally made my day !!! how come I didn't see it myself I have no idea?! silly skater mind who just wants skate to be together and don't understand the big picture right in front of her eyes :rolleyes:

anyway I completely agree with you, and even though jules' death (and heartbroken sawyer ) seems a big obstacle for skate right now after reading your post I m sure they find their way back to each other :lotsalove

thank you mattarreyes for this beautiful post :hug:

[Lyly Ford]

i could say jate got closure since the moment where kate chose to keep sawyer's promise for herself and the moment even if we didn't see it where sawyer chose to keep the fact jin and him searched locke and co
as said juliet you can love someone but sometimes it's not enough and that's the reflect of jate and suliet here
no matter how hard both couple tried it was doomed, skate never got chance to be together so so long, now sawyer will feel so alone and i don't think with only 17 episodes, darlton will waste this time to bring back jate as romance but build something very deep and strong for skate
why they could have waste whh episode or even the recap before the episode to make jate the endgame ?
you can believe me even if we didn't get the skate we hoped on finale season, the line of brose was clear, it was sawyer and kate future, in peace, happy together on the island with babies and dog :giggle:

[Katie27]

EXACTLY!i know i posted that was the reason both recent relationships were looking at eachother!why didn't skate look at eachother?their past,there love for eachother was about to be erased?IMO there is a reason for this.because the jate & suliet pairngs needed to be closed.jack said that it was too late.juliet told that the reason she wants to go along with jacks plan.is because she knows eventually she'll end up losing him.& mikey i totally agree with you too hun!i really don't need cheering up.because i will never give up on my ship because the facts are there.& trust me.in order to be an epic couple you need to be seperated.torn apart or to make sacrafices.that is exactly what happened with skate.i have faith that the writers are gonna bring skate back in full force next season.to show that their love will be the one that will make it to the end.next season we'll get final declarations & everything else coming together with the island mythology.trust me jate is done!& so is suliet!even though i hate that juliet had to die.or maybe she's still alive.but the fact is that skates story still needs to be told!the only ship that has not been rushed!let the jate fans cheer on for now & have their happy moment!because come 2010 skate is gonna make those walls come crumbling down!

I love it.

Suliet and Jate are totally parallel story lines.

The rise and demise of Jate lasted an episode. One. We saw nothing of how Jack came over his problem with being with Kate (and Aaron.) We just saw that they were together. We have no clue how long their romance lasted. And without a doubt they did love each other but I'm going to take a line from the Suliet story line and say...just because you love each other doesn't mean you're meant to be together. Kate knew that when Jack started drinking and yelling at her for doing a favor for Sawyer. Kate knew that her relationship with Jack was over, but I do think she was trying to hold on to it because it was there. Sawyer was happy with Juliet and Kate knew that too. Kate could see how Sawyer and Juliet interacted so it was easier to try and hold on to her relationship with Jack because he hadn't found anything else.

Sawyer and Juliet no doubt in my mind were in love. Juliet loved him so much. And Sawyer definitely loved her too, but they knew that it wouldn't work out. Saying goodbye was the last thing they had to do. Juliet basically told Sawyer that they were over because she was all for erasing their lives. It broke her heart because she even said "If I never meet you, I don't have to lose you." She was trying to save herself from heartache. So when the bomb was supposed to explode basically Suliet was done and Jate was done. Skate hadn't had a chance to begin again so they didn't have any unfinished business.

I obviously don't know what's going on with Juliet. I'm sad for Sawyer that she's dead, and if she stays dead it would be sad, but since it's Lost and since it ended that way we really don't know what's going to happen.

I think that Juliet is basically not going to come back. I think she's going to be alive, but not on the island. I think S6 will be about Sawyer and Kate's journey back to each other and then everyone's journey back off the island. I have this image in my mind of Sawyer and Kate back in the real world and walking down the street, past Juliet. They know who she is, but she has no idea who they are. Maybe I'm way off, but I just can't wait till January.

[confidence-girl]

I agree with everything you all just said. It makes so much more sense now.

Originally Posted by Matarreyes
Yes, you heard me right. After sleeping on the episode, I am totally sure that was what we were supposed to see, but due to all the twists the writers gave us, we were unable to correctly process the scenes and realise it. Now hear me out, and sorry for the long post!

Let´s loose our stubborn focus on "Sawyer and Kate love each other and need to jump into each other arms already". They also love (albeit less) the people they spent the last 3 years with. Sawyer isn’t a con man anymore, and Kate isn´t a wh*re to be sleeping with people they don´t give a damn about. By the end of the season, both Suliet and Jate are having problems, but haven´t split in an official, TV series, closure-style way. That´s the reason “season 5 hasn´t given us Skate on a golden plate”. Sawyer and Kate had to close their respective chapters by themselves, before moving on to something different together. And in the Finale, they finally did it!

Now here is my take on the Jate evolution this season:
Initial status: going strong enough for the two to be engaged.
Cause of fracture: Kate keeping her promise to Sawyer (Skatey translation: because she loved Sawyer more) .
Moment of fracture: Jack telling Kate he wants to erase their past because enough of it was misery.
Still holding on because of Kate saying an horrified NO to Jack and running to get somebody stop him from deleting their lives. I think we Skaters got the "Kate turning on Jack" scene wrong. We cheered because we thought she was deserting him, but she was still trying to save her relationship. Why? The same reason Sawyer was trying to preserve his: she cared for Jack as much as he cared for Juliet. Sawyer was ready to leave the island with Juliet. Kate was ready to get Sawyer to beat Jack senseless to stop Jack from breaking up with her. Silly noble people.
Jate´s official closure: Kate finally agreeing with Jack to erase the past. I was so pissed off at her at the moment, and couldn´t make any sense of her YES. Now I understand. She finally agreed with Jack on the fact that their relationship was all misery, and supported his decision to let it go. Pretty obvious once we slow down our poor Skater hearts.
Jate´s nauseous final display of affection: Kate´s way of saying good bye. Note how she reminds Jack of the first time they met? It´s because she is leaving him, you silly people. Girls get mushy over breakups. I remember a time when I gave a boyfriend the news I wanted us to be done. I hugged him afterwards real real tight, because I knew I had hurt him. Hugs and wound-healing mean nothing when the person is going to say “yes, go ahead make it so we never met each other”.

Here is my take on the Suliet evolution this season:
Cause of fracture: Sawyer´s unconscious looks at Kate (note: I think it´s totally canon now that he loved Juliet very very much, just not as much as Kate, and it was proven by the Rose/Bernard scene when he couldn´t check himself in time).
Moment of fracture: Juliet getting jealous and doubtful.
Suliet still holding on because of Sawyer wanting to do the right thing.
Suliet official closure: Juliet saying that even if two people are in love, it does not mean they will be together. And that she knows he´d always be with her, if she let him, implying that the right thing would be to let him go. Sawyer doesn´t give her any weird YESes, but he gives up trying to kill Jack at this point, meaning he finally admits she is right.

See how similar the situations really are? One member of the pair (Jack and Juliet) understands that he/she has lost the other one (Kate and James), and wants a way out by jumping on the bomb train. The other member stubbornly fights against this solution until he/she reluctantly agrees and gives his/her EX-partner what we could call a good bye moment. They just do their closures in a different way. Sawyer (being a guy) calms down for Juliet and stops kicking Jack´s ass (he had probably longed to do that since season 1). Kate (being a woman) patches her ex up one last time.
That´s why Jate and Suliet were looking at each other before the blast. They were saying good bye to the person they have just totally and irremediably broken up with. Pretty legit, IMO

Fastforward to Season 6: a broken down Sawyer and a sympathetic Kate, both already officially relationship-less before the Juliet disaster struck (therefore not each other second choices), are "free to be you and me". What do you think guys? Makes much sense to me. At the very least, this should cheer you up!

Especailly everything you just said Matarreyes. Its made me feel so much better and given me hope that Skate will infact end up together :)

[naeskbsfan]

i could say jate got closure since the moment where kate chose to keep sawyer's promise for herself and the moment even if we didn't see it where sawyer chose to keep the fact jin and him searched locke and co
as said juliet you can love someone but sometimes it's not enough and that's the reflect of jate and suliet here
no matter how hard both couple tried it was doomed, skate never got chance to be together so so long, now sawyer will feel so alone and i don't think with only 17 episodes, darlton will waste this time to bring back jate as romance but build something very deep and strong for skate
why they could have waste whh episode or even the recap before the episode to make jate the endgame ?



:nod:jate scenes keep replaying out the same old way.do you guy's ever wonder why kate always just seems to caress jacks face in the same old damn way.we saw that in season 1.then in ep promo pic in season 4.when kate con hugged him!& trust me with only 17 or 18 ep's left in season 6 there is no time building jate love story!that would be a complete waste of time.whereas skate just need to find their way back toeachother.the love is there!they just need to declare it to one another.jate's been over time & time again.

I love it.

Suliet and Jate are totally parallel story lines.

The rise and demise of Jate lasted an episode. One. We saw nothing of how Jack came over his problem with being with Kate (and Aaron.) We just saw that they were together. We have no clue how long their romance lasted. And without a doubt they did love each other but I'm going to take a line from the Suliet story line and say...just because you love each other doesn't mean you're meant to be together. Kate knew that when Jack started drinking and yelling at her for doing a favor for Sawyer. Kate knew that her relationship with Jack was over, but I do think she was trying to hold on to it because it was there. Sawyer was happy with Juliet and Kate knew that too. Kate could see how Sawyer and Juliet interacted so it was easier to try and hold on to her relationship with Jack because he hadn't found anything else.

Sawyer and Juliet no doubt in my mind were in love. Juliet loved him so much. And Sawyer definitely loved her too, but they knew that it wouldn't work out. Saying goodbye was the last thing they had to do. Juliet basically told Sawyer that they were over because she was all for erasing their lives. It broke her heart because she even said "If I never meet you, I don't have to lose you." She was trying to save herself from heartache. So when the bomb was supposed to explode basically Suliet was done and Jate was done. Skate hadn't had a chance to begin again so they didn't have any unfinished business.

I obviously don't know what's going on with Juliet. I'm sad for Sawyer that she's dead, and if she stays dead it would be sad, but since it's Lost and since it ended that way we really don't know what's going to happen.

I think that Juliet is basically not going to come back. I think she's going to be alive, but not on the island. I think S6 will be about Sawyer and Kate's journey back to each other and then everyone's journey back off the island. I have this image in my mind of Sawyer and Kate back in the real world and walking down the street, past Juliet. They know who she is, but she has no idea who they are. Maybe I'm way off, but I just can't wait till January.

TOTALLY AGREE!juliet truly broke my heart!she always seem to think clearer than anyone in this triangle/quandrangle.she did the same thing with jack.only before she went further for actually loving him.she let him go.now with sawyer it's much more complicated.because she fell in love with the man!& could see why kate couldn't stay away from him.all the while the man worth fighting for was sawyer!& juliet she tried to move on.almost got close to getting her happy ending.but she realized it's only a matter of time when sawyer feelings for kate will be revealed.she's saving her heart one less heartbreak!because honestly i think for juliet losing sawyer to kate would kill her!in her mind she was thinking you can't hold onto something that was never yours to begin with.& the same with jack,when kate wouldn't tell him "THE PROMISE"!he was yet another revelation that kate will always keep that part of sawyer closer to her heart!if kate wanted to work it out with jack.if she truly wanted to love him & only him.she would have let go of "THE PROMISE"!& just give into jacks request and tell him what she was doing for sawyer!& the only reason i feel that jack didn't tell sawyer about why he lost kate?the only reason i could think of is because he see's or believes that juliet & him are truly happy.i mean sawyer is constantly reminded them that they were happy in their life there on the island!& part of me also believes he's doing it for juliet.he knows how much her hearts been broken.& that is why when sawyer told him she right over there go and ask her to take you back.jack said "IT WAS TOO LATE!"if sawyer only knew the truth!trust me next season "FREE TO BE YOU & ME" is skate!

[Matarreyes]

Hey, I am so happy you are with me on this! I found an incredible peace of mind after digesting the finale in the way I described, hoped it would cheer you up too, if anyone needed cheering. Anyway, what makes me 100% sure of Skate in 6th season is how hurt Sawyer was left in the last episode. The writers even managed to fit his dead parents into the drama. He will need some mighty support and honestly, do you think it will be up to... Who? Hurley? Jack? Sayid? Nope. Many people could have helped Sawyer to drag Juliet back, but it was Kate who actually was there (I am sure the writers deliberately knocked Jack out so that Skate had to navigate that nightmarish moment alone). And remember, Kate recenty lost a baby. She will understand how James feels. The only but is that there probably won´t be any amazing hot fireworks and funny exchanges a la season 1-3 season, at least at the beginning. But more stuff a la the pill scene? Get ready for it!

And this an exercise for those stubbornly giving up on Skate even now (not many, I hope). Find a thick classical literature tome. Doesn´t matter what title. Break it into 6 even sections and open it by the end of the 5th. Chances are high you will find a tense, climatic, want to throw the book at the wall, doomsday situation. Now go check the actual happy ending, and be at peace.;) Just like Nae and Lily said, the timing is perfect for the broken things to be mended just in time for the series finale!

[naeskbsfan]

Hey, I am so happy you are with me on this! I found an incredible peace of mind after digesting the finale in the way I described, hoped it would cheer you up too, if anyone needed cheering. Anyway, what makes me 100% sure of Skate in 6th season is how hurt Sawyer was left in the last episode. The writers even managed to fit his dead parents into the drama. He will need some mighty support and honestly, do you think it will be up to... Who? Hurley? Jack? Sayid? Nope. Many people could have helped Sawyer to drag Juliet back, but it was Kate who actually was there (I am sure the writers deliberately knocked Jack out so that Skate had to navigate that nightmarish moment alone). And remember, Kate recenty lost a baby. She will understand how James feels. The only but is that there probably won´t be any amazing hot fireworks and funny exchanges a la season 1-3 season, at least at the beginning. But more stuff a la the pill scene? Get ready for it!


And this an exercise for those stubbornly giving up on Skate even now (not many, I hope). Find a thick classical literature tome. Doesn´t matter what title. Break it into 6 even sections and open it by the end of the 5th. Chances are high you will find a tense, climatic, want to throw the book at the wall, doomsday situation. Now go check the actual happy ending, and be at peace.;) Just like Nae and Lily said, the timing is perfect for the broken things to be mended just in time for the series finale!

AMEN!I TOTALLY LOVE U!:cloud9:

[Katie27]

Kate is seriously the only person who will be able to comfort Sawyer. Just like Juliet was the only person who could comfort him after Kate was gone. It's going to be wonderful to see that.

[~Ines]

Matarreyes, you absolutely nailed what I wanted to say about the finale and couldn't find the right words for it, actually. :)

I won't deny I didn't feel some kind of disappointment right after the episode. Most of all, I was just shaken to the core. Not in the likes of the past seasons, where there was a huge cliffhanger at the end and everybody just spinned stories about how's it gonna continue for the next couple of months. I was shaken, because that was NOT what I expected. I thought it would look completely different.
But what did I do? I thought about it overnight, let myself come to terms with the present situation and then started "theorising". ;)

To me, Juliet is dead, I mean dead-dead. She's not coming back as an alive person. Jacob visited everybody BUT her, and the only reason her FB was shown, was to make a connection between her parents' situation and her own with Sawyer. Two people loving each other doesn't mean two people making a good couple. That's a fact. And besides, I don't think Sawyer loved her the way she thought he did, and the way he wished to. This as well may be overinterpreting, I get it, but is just my personal opinion.
The only words he could say, or yell, to her in the death moment was "don't you leave me". Not responding to her repeated ILYs, just forbidding to leave him. And this, to me, makes a connection with HIS FB. It was his parents' funeral, so he must've felt like the loneliest person in the whole world. The love he had for Juliet was similar to what he could feel for his mother. A mother he hardly had in his life. Juliet was the only person ever whose feelings he was sure about, who would stick with him to the very end and who supported him. He was never supported. Nobody ever had his back. And THAT'S what he lacked, and THAT'S what made him turn towards this woman when he lost everything he cared for. There was no one to comfort him, and she understood him, like a mother would do. He loved her this way, slowly letting go of the romantic thing he had for Kate- never really managing to get rid of it, though, but trying hard to forget, and replacing her with Jules we know.
So yes, I trust his tears wholeheartedly.

Juliet made the right step in time, because if she didn't, he'd be with her just till his death. The sense of loyalty he gained would never let him tell her "bye". She was too close of a person. I get his actions completely, but I needed time to be able to. They did split up. It's quite sad that Juliet had to die, but I can swallow it as long as it's an opening for the season 6 that's said to be all-way Skate. (Right Kristin, I wish I could stop believing you. I just can't :() I only hope it will be GOOD, because Sawyer crying for the first 10, oh no! even 5! episodes, would most definitely be BAD. I understand this bereavement, this mourning time he has to get over. I just don't want it to be so very very long.

As for Jate. She wiped his face? Oh big deal. She let him talk about the stuff she never wanted him to ever mention again before? Well, it was high time they exchanged some words on this (and a lil' bit of the diplomatic side of Jack, but let's leave it). She changed her mind about such a crucial thing? She did it because he convinced her it's for AARON'S GOOD. Does she care for anyone more than for Aaron now? I highly doubt it. She considers him to be her own baby (Sawyer's substitute, yup yup, but that's a separate topic again), she considers herself to be his mother. A loving mother is willing to do everything to save her baby, even if it has tragical consequences for herself. Blah, I don't even have to explain it, everyone knows that.
So Kate bids farewell to the 3,5 years that made her a different person.

Both of the "pairs"; Jack and Kate, Juliet and Sawyer DO say goodbye to each other in the finale. I'm just glad I saw it early enough to prevent the sadness that, over the next weeks/months, I would feel if I didn't. ;)

[Matarreyes]

"I don't think Sawyer... loved Juliet the way he wished to."
Ines, I like your way to describe it. It perfectly sums up several facts about Sawyer´s relationship with Juliet: that he did love her very much, that he knew he didn´t love her enough, that he was terribly sorry for it, and that he himself would have never admitted to the fact. The idea of Juliet being the first person to have his back on things, and the importance of this support for someone with Sawyer´s backstory.

Makes me want to cry just think about it. He sure has come a long way, just to have his heart broken to little pieces and wind up "all alone" again :rolleyes:. Hope Kate will know what to do. ;)

[Katie27]

"I don't think Sawyer... loved Juliet the way he wished to."
Ines, I like your way to describe it. It perfectly sums up several facts about Sawyer´s relationship with Juliet: that he did love her very much, that he knew he didn´t love her enough, that he was terribly sorry for it, and that he himself would have never admitted to the fact. The idea of Juliet being the first person to have his back on things, and the importance of this support for someone with Sawyer´s backstory.

Makes me want to cry just think about it. He sure has come a long way, just to have his heart broken to little pieces and wind up "all alone" again :rolleyes:. Hope Kate will know what to do. ;)

This is also how I feel about Jate as a relationship. Kate loved the idea of Jack. He was a 'hero' and he was someone who she thought she wanted, but she never loved him enough and that's why it all fell apart. I think that she felt guilty about not loving Jack enough either.

[~Ines]

For me, Kate did not "love" Jack "enough". She admired him. She was impressed by him. She thought he is the blessing that falls from heaven for her and her miserable life, and gives her a chance to live an another one. She thought he is so contrary to Wayne, while Sawyer was so similar to him. So in her opinion, Jack would be the ideal guy and she should stay away from everywhere Sawyer is near.
And THIS is why Sawyer should end up with her- for her to finally accept that love isn't about finding a perfect person, but seeing an imperfect person perfectly; finding the perfection in the one you think of as the least good person for you. Appearances can easily trick you, huh? That was the major reason I shipped Skate during the first 3 seasons. And, in the end... it actually works fine even now.

[Katie27]

I started shipping Skate during the pilot when Sawyer grabbed Kate by the wrist and pulled her toward him and said "I've been with girls like you." there was fireworks. And even though they didn't necessarily like each other in the beginning, it grew to this amazing love.
Darlton said it during the recap that Suliet didn't have the fireworks that SKate did...And Jate doesn't have the fireworks either. You need to have some fighting in a relationship to have it work.
Ines-I love that you said for her to finally accept that love isn't about finding a perfect person, but seeing an imperfect person perfectly
It's so so true. I think Kate's whole life she was trying to find the perfect man...but a "perfect" man for Kate would be someone who loves her for everything...including all the imperfections and "miserable" moments.

[callie1327]

Ines-I love that you said
It's so so true. I think Kate's whole life she was trying to find the perfect man...but a "perfect" man for Kate would be someone who loves her for everything...including all the imperfections and "miserable" moments.

Omg I couldnt agree more!

[Prince_Rajani]

You know, I heard once that women "Marry their fathers." Now, before your mind goes down the wrong path, it basically means that girls marry men who are like their fathers.

I think Kate wants to love Jack for two reasons. One, because he is someone she admires, someone heroic and basically what every girl thinks she needs. But I think she also wants to love Jack because that would be like disowning Wayne as her father, and saying that the Sergeant...Sam, was that his name?...that she thought was her father, really was.

BUT!

I think there might be something of Sergeant Sam in Sawyer, too, which manifested itself fully before Kate's eyes upon their return to the Island. Sawyer became a hero and got his head on straight while kate was off gallivanting with Jack. This almost puts Kate in her mother's shoes, with "cheating" on Sawyer even though she loved him.

So that makes Jack...now slightly crazy, wanting to erase everything, even bordering on being verbally abusive when he was drunk (trust me, I know verbal abuse) in Wayne's shoes, doesn't it?

Ugh, this doesn't even seem to make sense, but it does in my head :P

In short, I totally agree with Mattareyes (who is now, like, my Skate hero right up there with Bryden and katie) and i totally think that we're done with Jate. I don't doubt they'll have scenes next season, but i seriously doubt any Jate moments with amount to much. Kate agreed to erase her past with him, which is what the whole conflict between them was.

LONG LIVE SKATE!!! :w00t:

[Katie27]

You know, I heard once that women "Marry their fathers." Now, before your mind goes down the wrong path, it basically means that girls marry men who are like their fathers.

I think Kate wants to love Jack for two reasons. One, because he is someone she admires, someone heroic and basically what every girl thinks she needs. But I think she also wants to love Jack because that would be like disowning Wayne as her father, and saying that the Sergeant...Sam, was that his name?...that she thought was her father, really was.

BUT!

I think there might be something of Sergeant Sam in Sawyer, too, which manifested itself fully before Kate's eyes upon their return to the Island. Sawyer became a hero and got his head on straight while kate was off gallivanting with Jack. This almost puts Kate in her mother's shoes, with "cheating" on Sawyer even though she loved him.

So that makes Jack...now slightly crazy, wanting to erase everything, even bordering on being verbally abusive when he was drunk (trust me, I know verbal abuse) in Wayne's shoes, doesn't it?

Ugh, this doesn't even seem to make sense, but it does in my head :P


No you totally make sense. The first 3.5 seasons Jack was Sam...but he became Wayne when he was yelling at Kate. And I totally agree that it would be considered verbally abusive...Let's recap shall we??

Jack:Where were you today?

[Kate moves from the couch to kneel in front of Jack.]

KATE: I'm gonna ask you... to trust me. Trust me, just leave it be.

JACK: (pause, deep sigh) Where were you? (first sign that he can't let it go...trust issues)

KATE: (whispers) Jack, don't.

JACK: (slightly agitated now) No, I heard you on the phone last night. Who were you talking to?

KATE: Just let it go...

[Kate stands and begins walking away.]

JACK: No, no, I wanna know.

[Jack stands and begins following her across the room.]

KATE: No, Jack...

JACK: I wanna know where you were. I wanna know who you were with.

KATE: It doesn't matter, Jack. Please...

JACK: No, tell me. (yells) Tell me!

[Kate, on the verge of tears, turns to face Jack.]

KATE: I was doing something for him.

JACK: (quietly) For who?

KATE: For Sawyer. (pause) I made him a promise.

[Jack incredulously looks around the room for a moment.]

JACK: What?

KATE: (very upset) It doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with us.

JACK: Then why won't you tell me?

KATE: Because... because he wouldn't want me to.

JACK: But he's not here, is he? No... No, he made his choice. He chose to stay. I'm the one who came back. I'm the one who's here. I'm the one who saved you.

[Jack turns and looks away from her.]

KATE: Jack... (sniffles) You can't... you can't do this. If you have problems, you need to figure them out. All right? 'Cause I can't have you like this around my son.

[Jack turns back to face her again.]

JACK: Your son?! You're not even related to him!

[Kate pauses and looks to the side. Jack follows her gaze to see Aaron standing across the room holding a stuffed animal. Kate goes over to him, picks him up and cradles him in her arms.]

KATE: Hey, sweet pea. Hey.

[Jack, with a defeated look on his face, turns and slowly walks away. Kate, holding Aaron and crying, watches him go.]

My daddy always said when you make a woman cry then you're a coward...and especially since after Jack made her cry, he then walked away from her because he was a double coward and couldn't face the fact that he had just totally screwed up his happy jengagement.

So therefore since Jack was now Wayne to her she didn't know what to do...that's also why it's too late. Kate had seen that side of Jack now, and her illusion of Jack the perfect spinal surgeon hero had completely faded away.

And then when she got back to the island and she realized that Sawyer had made a life...not only as head of security but he also had a life with Juliet, she realized that it's what she has always wanted. A man who can take care of her and be there for her, but have an important role. But to me Kate had gotten over the fact that Jack was a hero. She got over her hero complex and she didn't need a "hero" as in doctor hero...she needed a hero as in a-man-who-would-jump-from-a-helicopter "hero".

[Matarreyes]

Prince_Rajani, you made me blush. Seriously!
And even more valid Skate points! If our ship is totally rocking now, just imagine next year!

Old!Sawyer=Wayne, New!Jack=Wayne parallel. Awesome. I remember perfectly how troubled I was by that Jack/Kate-crying scene. I thought I was hearing wrong at first. I have hated Jack since always, but he was sold as the show hero, and I couldn´t believe they had him do that. Abusive is exactly the right and only word for it. What´s more, I am troubled by the amount of people (Jate shipper girls) who can´t see anything wrong with that scene. They think it was romantic, and that it´s excusable because it´s "love" and Jack was "low" and "drunk". Troubling, right? And many think that Kate simply must tell him about Sawyer´ promise in Season 6 as a token of her love. Because a girl can´t have independent thoughts and keep her own in a relationship.

Compare that to Sawyer, who always caught Kate on her secrets and rolled with them or simply called her on them. Because he understood her, and the fact that love does not equal posession. The guy gave her a mix tape after being led to believe he was used for consolation sex. That´s sportsmanship! Even in this finale, he said "Kate is over there, go and talk to her!" to baby Jack who was rewinding time instead of trying to utter an "I am sorry". Sawyer is awesome like that. ;) He deserves Kate simply because he doesn´t want to tie her up and make her into a nice gift package for himself.

Another thought. Note the Sawyer decision making process with his girl (Juliet). "Let´s do X. Are you OK with that?" Yes (interrogation scene)-> lets do it. No (sub scene)->lets do something different.
Now to Jack decision making process with Kate (pre-bomb conversation). "I want to do X. I need you to validate me. I NEED YOU TO! If you don´t, I´ll bring up Aaron despite the fact that I got zombie-sex out of you in exchange for a promise I´d never bring Aaron up."
Enough said.

[jessica1984]

I think that, although there are many excellent points and posts here that can and will probably offset mine, it is not a smart thing to declare romantic Jate as officially done right now.

How many times has something really awful looking or just plain bad for Jate happenned and we automatically said "There is no way Jate can come back from this?" Too many times to count. We said it after I Do, after the handcuff scene in TMFT, after Kate wanted Sawyer's baby in Eggtown, after the fight in SNBH, after seeing how Sawyer sacrificed for her TNPLH, after Kate stormed away from him in TLP, after zombie sex and "We're on the same plane, doesn't make us together" in 316, after the Sawyer-heartache of WHH, after she walked away from him FTL, and we are saying it now because....why are we saying it now? I don't see what closure Jate was supposed to have in the finale. Jack admitted once again that he loves her and that the pain of losing her was driving his actions, Kate once again forgave all the crap he put her through and had his back, and they shared a "goodbye" without words before Jack dropped the bomb, which may I add, was a hell of a lot more than Skate got.

It just seems that Jate should have had closure a million times by now and the fact that haven't, and even seem to be back on the same page again after this finale, tells me that even though it has gone through the ringer, it still has a heartbeat.

Right now Jate and Skate are equal on who makes it as endgame. IMO, neither ship has the upper hand and neither ship looks like the more obvious option. That is EXACTLY what TPTB probably wanted to do: Put Jate and Skate back at square one so that S6 can be about rebuilding both couples so that Kate has a legitimate choice to make.

Just my opinion, but nothing is over.

[confidence-girl]

I love how all of you make perfect sense :D

Lets look at the facts here guys. Darlton have been building up and building up Skate for the past 4-5 years now and to just cut it dead by making Kate choose Jack or Kate dieing etc is just a slap in the face. Many Jaters have that same opinion but the other way around obviously.
But Sawyer and Kate have been through so much more together. I mean yeah, Jack and Kate have had there little adventures and yeah they were engaged at one point but we all no how that ended :rolleyes:. But Skate have been through alot worse ie The hole others situation. Yes I no Jack was captured to but they didnt beat him, make him break rocks etc.

And plus Sawyers been there for her and sacrificed more for Kate then Jack ever did.

Who jumped out of the helicopter, giving up his chance of getting off the island and risking his life just so Kate could get back home?

Who was there to comfort her when Libby and Ana-lucia died?

Who did she admit she loved first ?

Who did she have hot cage sex with?

Who would she do anything for?

Who gave her a mixtape ?

Who unbanished her ?

Who gave her the baby she'd always wanted? (fair enough it was Claires baby, but Sawyer giving him to Kate was a nice moment :rolleyes:)

Who did she share an EPIC JAW DROPPING kiss with ?

Who did she want to be with off the island ?

You get my point.

It was Sawyer. Not Jack because Sawyer and Kate were meant to be. Jack and Kate getting back together, not gonna happen. Even Jack said so himself. Im not going to deny that Kate still has feelings for him and that she still loves him because she does. Just alot less then what she did before.
Im going to hold Kristen to her promise that we will get some Skate next season and that everything will be alright in the long run.
Cause lets face it guys Skate is endgame.

[sofia-carby]

:rotflol::crackup:

[Prince_Rajani]

:rotflol::crackup:

Considering this is a Jater, I think we can construe this as baiting, yes? :rolleyes:

[sofia-carby]

Considering this is a Jater, I think we can construe this as baiting, yes? :rolleyes:

Oh no, I was just laughing at myself. Forgot to take my meds, sorry :o

[Matarreyes]

I will write the above person an educated personal message, and let´s ignore the post until the mod officially deals with this, because I really want to avoid littering our nice thread with discussion of this [INSERT WORD HERE]. On the brighter side, the analysis does irk them bad enough to come here and leave little petty poops on our ground. :D

Jessica, of course the Jate isn´t officially over. And it´s a good thing. There is still one season to go and, paraphrasing Hurley, there are no such thing as corean wars and series that last an entire season with an established couple. Lots of Jate and little Skate now = reversal in the near future. Just go rewatch the previous seasons to convince yourself. I´d be a hell more worried if Skate were seen touching each other wounds in this finale. That would be their definitive demise later on.

I am calling it now. After 5 finales of asinine mess-ups, next year Jack will finally fullfill his wish and do something right -> die a gruesome death (saving all Losties, evidently, because we´ll need to appraise the Jaters). Sawyer will get the girl and fly away on the Millenium Falcon. :D

[Katie27]

I am calling it now. After 5 finales of asinine mess-ups, next year Jack will finally fullfill his wish and do something right -> die a gruesome death (saving all Losties, evidently, because we´ll need to appraise the Jaters). Sawyer will get the girl and fly away on the Millenium Falcon. :D

I really think that Jack will die heroic too. Sawyer will get the girl, while Jack gets the amazing hero death like Charlie.

[callie1327]

I really think that Jack will die heroic too. Sawyer will get the girl, while Jack gets the amazing hero death like Charlie.

I think that would be an amazing ending and it would make Jack look so much better because he would be truley selfless and thats something I have yet to see this from him because everytime there is a way out that would help everyone he has to benefit from it somehow or hes not going to do it.

[Katie27]

I think that would be an amazing ending and it would make Jack look so much better because he would be truley selfless and thats something I have yet to see this from him because everytime there is a way out that would help everyone he has to benefit from it somehow or hes not going to do it.

ITA...Every decision Jack has made has been a selfish one. He is always out for himself first. Sawyer started out not doing anything for anyone either, but I would rather have someone do nothing than someone make a decision for everyone, just because it would best benifit himself.

[Vesna]

Jate are meant to be ?:rotflol:. That ship was so much dead before the finale, so they had to give them some looks to keep the traingle alive.. Anyway im positive that next season is gona be full of Skatey love.. Just think of Damon's quote from the recap of the season "Sawyer is the man she realy loves" :D!

[benos]

And Kate is the girl Jack really loves.

Surely, they did say the triangle will end this season, only for season 5?.

Jack takes matters into his own hands, by having a man to man fight with Sawyer. Which makes Kate think that Jack is wrong on doing it since she won't want to go to the way things were. And so ends the Jate saga. But even so in the end of season 6. Sawyer will sacrifice himself, as he truly loves her, so like Jules, Sawyer had to let her go. This time it'll be a mix-around as Sawyer dies as a hero amongst men. Not that I want them to all to die, just the way things go on Lost.

[Katie27]

It is possible that Sawyer will sacrifice himself too...but how unfair would that be? Sawyer made his sacrifice in S4 finale, and now I think it's Jack's turn to actually make an unselfish sacrifice.

[Lydz]

O_0

For the Lulz

[Luanne]

It really doesn't matter if Jack really loves Kate or Sawyer really loves Kate. We know this. Since this triangle is her story, it matters who she really loves and wants to be with, that's where we differ and why we have a triangle. Sawyer sacrificing himself period has been done. And him letting go of Kate, again, is beyond redundant.

[Lyly Ford]

jack will die at the end, i'm pretty sure of that not 'cause i want it but 'cause of his story BUT sawyer, i think especially this the lose of juliet and all his past life, he really deserves to live and be happy.

[ajessica]

how can anyone think after the finale that it was Jate closure is beyond me? it can t be more clear that they suffer from being away from each other; and for once they actually were bearable to watch (well kate annoys me a little but it will pass)

[Piria]

Thank you tahnk you thank you...for this analysis. Its very recomforting. :w00t::clap::glomp:

[Christie]

how can anyone think after the finale that it was Jate closure is beyond me? it can t be more clear that they suffer from being away from each other; and for once they actually were bearable to watch (well kate annoys me a little but it will pass)

and you're writing this in the skate thread because............?:blank:

[ajessica]

and you're writing this in the skate thread because............?:blank:
can t we be objectif? and do we have to hate jate to love skate? i don t understand your comment

[Christie]

I'm sorry it just seems a little strange to me for someone to say that first of all jate is endgame and second of all that they get annoyed by kate in the sawyer and kate thread. *shrugs* I could be wrong though and I don't want to start any kind of tension over here. I just think you're wrong and if you actually read though this thread and see other people's opinions maybe you'll change your mind;) If you are still a skater that is.

[ajessica]

I'm sorry it just seems a little strange to me for someone to say that first of all jate is endgame and second of all that they get annoyed by kate in the sawyer and kate thread. *shrugs* I could be wrong though and I don't want to start any kind of tension over here. I just think you're wrong and if you actually read though this thread and see other people's opinions maybe you'll change your mind;) If you are still a skater that is.

i dont think jate is endgame but to me closure means when a relationship is done and feelings are over so that s why i said no way there were closure in this episode. Now Kate really annoyed me in this episode (she often does now that i think about it lol) but i still love skate :)

[Matarreyes]

Ajessica, love, be it far from me to suggest you opinion is not valid, but you seriously need to think a bit before writing it HERE. There are lots of general threads that would be happy to accomodate you take on Jate. We pretty much avoid that word here - you should have realized it's hidden behind asterisks in the thread title.
Best wishes
Matarreyes

[naeskbsfan]

It really doesn't matter if Jack really loves Kate or Sawyer really loves Kate. We know this. Since this triangle is her story, it matters who she really loves and wants to be with, that's where we differ and why we have a triangle. Sawyer sacrificing himself period has been done. And him letting go of Kate, again, is beyond redundant.

i agree with this.^seriously watching old eps.i have realized how much i love my ship.in all honesty we have the better end of the triangle.since the begining it was all up in the air who kate wanted.at least season 1.but going on further down the seasons it show more & more that sawyer was her choice.& then confirmed in "WHH".the only way i see them ressurecting jate.is to start off a new story.& honestly with one season left,i really don't see that happening.especially if the chemistry is not there.i believe that what they have showed us from season 1- to now.concerning the triangle,is that kate wanted jack to be the one.the writers have said it many times that jack should be the one she ends up with.but then there is sawyer.the one she is drawn too.that she can't help but to love.sawyer in the begining was this basic jerk in the begining,which btw..i still loved about him.but kate saw right through that.& now he is this mature man, a "HERO"a leader!funny how kate saw all these things in jack & the tables were turned.but still even with sawyer being the way he was before becoming the man he is now.kate still loved him.heck i know she still loves him.but when you see the person you love "happy" that is all you want for them is to be happy.& that is why i feel sawyer has sacraficed enough.& kate also is sacraficing her heart now.i honestly see jack being the one to either die in the end or become alot like locke"the man of faith"!where the triangle is concerned skate is gonna reunite.they have kept them apart all this time.for the ultimate ending.they could have built the jate story,with jack leaving with juliet in season 3.& seperate jack & kate.but they didn't,because they needed to build the story where it was shown.sawyer & kate had a begining,a middle,& now they are gonna have an end"A FUTURE"!so for jate being closed.they have been closed since the begining of this season 5.that wasn't a realtionship we saw off-island.it was honestly disturbing jate scenes & if skate played out that way.i would have gave up on them a loooooooong time ago.so all in all.the jate closure in season 5 did happen!

[Katie27]

I agree with everything you said Nae.
I really don't see how rebuilding the Jate relationship would make any sense. That would be redundant as well. We've seen how much of an epic fail Jate was. Skate never had as much failure as Jate. There were fights and there were moments that they were pulled apart, but never as big of a fight where it would equal a broken engagement. Kate left Sawyer at Otherville because she was "banished" and she was upset about his reaction to her not being pregnant, but as soon as they saw each other again, there were sparks. And something tells me that Kate wouldn't have stayed away that long. She would have eventually gone back to him.
But my whole thing is, is that they wouldn't have had this amazing separation (meaning Sawyer's sacrificing jump), if they weren't planning on having an amazing reunion...which I actually thought that their reunion was pretty good. But all of this angst that they've gone through is what will make them realize that they should have been together in the first place. From Juliet's "Just because we love each other doesn't mean we're meant to be together" and then there's the broken engagement. I don't see how a relationship can survive that. It would be totally redundant just to have them get back together. The Jate season was 4 and I guess you could argue somewhat 5 (if you don't count the Skatey WHH episode), now season 6 has to be Skate again. Because here's also sort of how it went.
S1-Kate and Jack had their flirty banter and she was leaning more toward him during season 1 even though she couldn't stay away from Sawyer. I think if you based her opinion on the men during the 1st season it would have to be Jack. Even though there was a Skate kiss and it was damn hot and it obviously had an effect on her. There was also some Skate flirtations going on, but I still think that season 1 was more Jatey.
S2-It was actually pretty even because they had the Jate kiss, and the beginning of the season was Jate flirting again, but only because Sawyer wasn't there. But I don't think that she really showed a true choice between either of them. She had her Jack moments, but then she took care of Sawyer and refused to leave his side, which is pretty amazing.
S3-Duh, Skatey all the way. There were still hints of Jate, like when she went back for him, but there's no denying that Season 3 was completley skate.
Then they started the trend over with the 4th season
S4-Jate engagement. Kate all worried about Jack with his appendix. Even though they had a couple of really hot Skate moments, and an amazing goodbye kiss and hero jump, it was still more Jatey than Skatey because the Jengagment (unfortunately) was pretty major.
S5-She actually didn't have an interest in either of them. We saw the creepy zombie sex, but I don't think that had anything to do with Kate wanting Jack. And then we obviously had the amazing WHH where she gave us what she actually feels about Sawyer...btw S2 also had the "Every time I feel something for Sawyer" moment when Kate was talking to "Wayne".
So S6-it would only be fitting to make it a mostly Skatey season.

[ajessica]

Ajessica, love, be it far from me to suggest you opinion is not valid, but you seriously need to think a bit before writing it HERE. There are lots of general threads that would be happy to accomodate you take on Jate. We pretty much avoid that word here - you should have realized it's hidden behind asterisks in the thread title.
Best wishes
Matarreyes

so much for the freedom of speech, in a skate forum we have a thread about jate closure so i wrote what i thought about the episode and that it was not closure to me. I don t see where is the problem in what i wrote

[nightskiesfading]

From the looks of it, ajessica is a Skater who wrote in a Skate forum thread that she didn't agree that Jate was over. I fail to see how this is a pro-Jate comment or in support for Jate at all, merely a comment in an appropriate thread that Jate is not over. This thread has gone off topic and the poster has been called out for that? It's going to be a long hiatus and I don't want to see any shipper fights, especially between shippers of the same ship. Please get this thread back on topic, and report posts that you have an issue with rather than dragging it out in the thread. If there's a violation of shipper conducts, it will be taken care of, and you can always send a report or send a ship mod a PM if you're unsure.

[tv-fan189]

I have been mulling it over and the way I see it, we have two options next season.

1. Sawyer/Kate grieving over their mutual grief

2. Sawyer/Kate hook up and Jack is doing something else with faux!Locke.

I read an interview by Fox yesterday that he thinks Jack is going to die, and usually I would take what an actors says when a grain of salt, but Fox likes to fancy himself above the rest of the cast in regards to his connection to Damon. Anyways, it is rather telling that he no longer does interviews about his character in regards to the triangle. It's possible that Jack dies early on in the season and Kate and Sawyer bond over their grief over Jack/Juliet, though I am sure none of us would love to see this scenario play out for obvious reasons. So I proposed a second opition.

If we look at Man #2 and Jacob, they parallel the struggle between Locke/Jack, with the man of faith vs the man of science argument. Man#2 had the ideal that "people come, they corrupt, and they tarnish things" which is basically the scientific analysis based on an observed pattern of events. Jacob's rational was "No matter what happens in between, everything will end in the same place," which is the faith approach. It is a direct parallel to Jack's scientific approach and Locke's "man of faith" approach we have witnessed for the past five seasons. Now Locke isn't himself anymore and we have no idea what he is, we just know he is dead and wants to kill Jacob. I wouldn't be surprised if Jack was already dead and an agent of Jacob, meant to fight against Locke, or he ends up dying in the last episode for it. It makes sense that since the series started with Jack opening his eyes, that it ends with him closing them.

A lot of people are going to die next season; Claire will be confirmed as already dead since season 4, Juliet is gone and I can see Miles and everyone else dying off early next season too. For a character like Sayid, his only redemption is through death because he killed so many people on the show and doesn't see himself as human; death is a very humanistic process. In the mean time, Skate were the only ones who were touched as kids, which must have signfiance. I think everyone but Sawyer/Kate will die, and they will either go back to civilization, or create their own on the island. There isn't anything else for Sawyer to do, since he tried out the leadership stuff and it's over for him now, all he has by way of storyline next season is Kate and her helping him through his grief.

In terms of Jate, I feel the finale was a sense of closure; I mean they had throw backs to the beginning of season 1. It was a nice way to close their story in a romantic sense IMHO. Not to mention they were paralleled to Suliet, a literally dead ship, and that is never a good thing. But I do think they left Jate open ended by having Jack tell Sawyer he had a chance and he lost her, rather than being honest and telling Sawyer he lost Kate because of the promise Kate made to Sawyer. I mean that is the key, had Jack been honest then Sawyer would know Kate still loved him but Jack is a selfish ass so I can't expect anything better from a fool like him.

I mean isn't it ironic that Skate's love caused the incident? Juliet went along with Jack because Sawyer blatantly showed feelings for Kate in her face and it made her jealous. Jack on the other hand has been dealing with Kate's feelings for Sawyer for three years so it makes sense he wants to reset things. Isn't what Sawyer said pretty telling? Why didn't Jack just walk over to Kate and ask for a second chance? Why'd he have to reset everything? IMO he knows it is over and his only chance is to erase Sawyer's existance from Kate's mind. But season 6 will open without their memories having been erased and eventually Kate will confess to Sawyer that she used Aaron to replace him. Sawyer will get his own "WHH" and I guarantee that is the episode Skate will reconnect with each other.

[Matarreyes]

A link to this MF interview, by any chance? I hate it when he guy starts insinuating he knows more intel then other actors (both Jack and Fox come off as head swollen jerks, isn't it funny?) but if he says such pleasurable things I will forgive him. Jack death by sacrifice is a pet theory/wish off mine. He sooo wants to become a hero, just may give the guy his heart's wish. We have already had Locke (death), Sayid (his humanity), Sawyer of course... Time to man up, Jackie boy.

[Katie27]

A link to this MF interview, by any chance? I hate it when he guy starts insinuating he knows more intel then other actors (both Jack and Fox come off as head swollen jerks, isn't it funny?) but if he says such pleasurable things I will forgive him. Jack death by sacrifice is a pet theory/wish off mine. He sooo wants to become a hero, just may give the guy his heart's wish. We have already had Locke (death), Sayid (his humanity), Sawyer of course... Time to man up, Jackie boy.

I think it's funny too becasue Evi said in that recent interview the differences between working with Matt and Josh. She said something like Josh and Matthew are polar opposites.
Josh-playful natural organic we're friends we laugh and every thing is very easy. We don't take the work very seriously. Not a ton of prep. Gutteral and instinctive. Learned so much about being in the moment and being relaxed and feeling safe.
Matthew-Professional relationship in our scenes. We're goofy and laughing when we're not rolling. He's much more dedicated and applied cerebral artist. Break the scene down to be on the same page. Challenges me to be less lazy as an actor. She said something about how he wants her to put in 150 percent if he is. Or something like that.

It is my opinion that you can be totally goofy and fun, but still put forth just as much effort as someone who is "dedicated and applied". I think that Sawyer's scenes are absolutely beautiful. If Josh goofs around on the set and doesn't put forth as much effort as Matthew Fox, then I guess that just means he's a better actor, because he's phenomenal. To me it would be very difficult to work with an actor who thought that he was working harder than me. I might be able to be friends with them off screen, but I would be very annoyed going to work every day. I would much rather work with someone I could mess around with and still get the job done. The actually goes for any job. I think that having fun at work is very important.
The fact that he always talks about how he knows how Lost is going to end and he knows what the last scene is going to be...well good for you Matthew. I personally don't want to know. And I think it would be absolutely the greatest thing in the world if Damon was totally lying to Matthew and there's was something completely different that Darlton had in mind for the ending scene.

[tv-fan189]

A link to this MF interview, by any chance? I hate it when he guy starts insinuating he knows more intel then other actors (both Jack and Fox come off as head swollen jerks, isn't it funny?) but if he says such pleasurable things I will forgive him. Jack death by sacrifice is a pet theory/wish off mine. He sooo wants to become a hero, just may give the guy his heart's wish. We have already had Locke (death), Sayid (his humanity), Sawyer of course... Time to man up, Jackie boy.

What else is new? Fox comes off as a conceited jerk, its probably his personality in real life that translated onto screen and made Jack so throughly unlikeable. I only like this interview because he speculates his own character's death. Fox could not care less about Jate and only gives a crap about getting an emmy for a tear worth death scene. So give this man his prize and kill off the most annoying character on TV...please Darlton?:giggle:

Here is the link, with this quote speculating Jack's death.

I think Jack will die. I mean that’s my own personal belief. Whether he will die in the last moments of the show or before that will remain to be seen. I think a lot of the characters are going to die, but I can be wrong. I might know that.”


http://www.sl-lost.com/

[Katie27]

Also he might just want his death scene, to get his Emmy.

[jessica1984]

In terms of Jate, I feel the finale was a sense of closure

I really would like to understand why so many people feel this way considering there is another season left. I saw nothing in the finale that indicated Jate was over and done.

Sawyer will get his own "WHH" and I guarantee that is the episode Skate will reconnect with each other.

JMO, but the last thing Sawyer needs is a WHH type of episode. I know how Sawyer feels about Kate. Regardless of Suliet, it was still shown to me that his heart was and will always be with Kate. I don't need a Sawyer WHH episode to show me that.

Kate is the one who needed an episode like that. It was her feelings and her actions that were ambiguous and not always clear and forthright. I guess WHH was meant to show that she did love Sawyer all along and frankly, that was something many people did not see prior to that episode.

Also, when Kate makes her final choice, it will be in her episode.

[Wagsy]

but Fox likes to fancy himself above the rest of the cast in regards to his connection to Damon.
both Jack and Fox come off as head swollen jerks, isn't it funny?
Matthew does seem very pompous and annoying in interviews.
Fox comes off as a conceited jerk, its probably his personality in real life that translated onto screen and made Jack so throughly unlikeable.

Wow. Bashing an actor because of your dislike of the character he plays and the ship opposite yours...

I suggest all of you learn to distinguish a TV show and it's characters and plots from real life and real people before you get labeled a rabid fan. It's not healthy.

Also, if this thread cannot continue without people bashing actors or going off topic, it will be closed. There is no point in letting this discussion continue if you cannot contribute thoughtfully to the topic at hand.

[Katie27]

:o.

I guess it is a bit unfair to judge Matthew...but I sincearly do think that he's a good actor. I do. I think he plays Jack amazingly.

As for Jate being completely over...I don't think that either ship is actually over, but the writers will only have time to rebuild one of them. It's only logical that they would choose Skate.

[Matarreyes]

I think it's unfair to imply I don't like Fox acting because I don't like Jack. I am perfectly capable of separating fiction from reality. It is my honest opinion that Mattew Fox is not a good actor, and I don't think his want to imply having internal knowledge of Lost beyond that of his fellow actors is very professional. That said, I do realize that I have used very strong expressions commenting on him, which I shouldn't have. For that, i am sincerely sorry.

[Wagsy]

I think it's unfair to imply I don't like Fox acting because I don't like Jack.
I didn't say you don't like his acting. I said you don't like him.

I am perfectly capable of separating fiction from reality.
Judging from the way the 3 of you went on and on about your dislikes of MF in a thread that should be about how you think a fictional relationship is ending, your confidence in your capability of separating fiction from reality is misplaced.

It is my honest opinion that Mattew Fox is not a good actor, and I don't think his want to imply having internal knowledge of Lost beyond that of his fellow actors is very professional.
You opinions on MF as a person is irrelevant, because that's not the topic of this thread. The 3 of you were not talking about his acting skills so please...own it up and lets move on. You can criticize acting skills, you just can go on an attack on an actor's person, characters, physique, etc. Either you didn't read our rules on actor bashing or you've read it but couldn't comprehend. I suggest you re-read our rules again.

With that being said, please get back on topic now, thanks.

[tv-fan189]

I read and understood Wagsy but for the record my dislike of Fox and Jack are separated, I did not like the actor before coming into the Lost Fandom. But sorry it got off topic, I noted it:)

I really would like to understand why so many people feel this way considering there is another season left. I saw nothing in the finale that indicated Jate was over and done.
I never said it was over completely. Didn't you see where I said Jack purposely left out what happened with Kate/promise to leave the triangle unresolved? I think it is sad that going into season 6 and Darlton managed to make Kate and Jack so hated and people wish for Sawyer to run away from their madness. However, I don't necessarily think that because Jate was forced in my face that it means their ZOMG meant to be.

JMO, but the last thing Sawyer needs is a WHH type of episode. I know how Sawyer feels about Kate. Regardless of Suliet, it was still shown to me that his heart was and will always be with Kate. I don't need a Sawyer WHH episode to show me that.
I don't see how Sawyer feels about Kate. Whatever happened in season 4 we have to assume was three years ago. We have not seen anything substantial from him, they watered down his character for the sake of contrivances that was Suliet.

[jessica1984]

I think it is sad that going into season 6 and Darlton managed to make Kate and Jack so hated and people wish for Sawyer to run away from their madness.

That is why Suliet was so loved and accepted: People got sick of Kate's antics within this triangle. It's harsh to say, but you cannot deny there is some truth to it. I think WHH came too little too late for a lot of people to change their mind about her. Sawyer being as loved as he is and as popular as he is doesn't hurt either. They want him happy.

However, I don't necessarily think that because Jate was forced in my face that it means their ZOMG meant to be.

It sure as hell doesn't mean their romantic relationship is over either or that there isn't a chance she will still end up with him. There is a great chance. I think as it stands right now, Jate are much closer to being endgame than Skate is simply because of the time factor. Sawyer and Kate are so far from where they should be while Jate, as disgusting as the relationship is, is closer to being rebuilt and fleshed out because they have been together more than Skate has the past couple seasons(years).

[Katie27]

It sure as hell doesn't mean their romantic relationship is over either or that there isn't a chance she will still end up with him. There is a great chance. I think as it stands right now, Jate are much closer to being endgame than Skate is simply because of the time factor. Sawyer and Kate are so far from where they should be while Jate, as disgusting as the relationship is, is closer to being rebuilt and fleshed out because they have been together more than Skate has the past couple seasons(years).

I respectfully have to disagree.
Skate and Jate, I feel are on the same level to where they are in their relationships. Kate loves both of them, and they both love her.
Jack is to the point where he wanted to erase their existence because he couldn't handle the fact that he lost her. To me that means that their relationship is definitely not intact.

As for Skate...Sawyer is really going to need someone to help him. I really believe that he's not going to want the help, but Kate will try to give it to him. I do think that at first he's going to push her away at first. I guess it all depends on how the next season starts out, but I can't see Darlton just deleting everything that has happened. I know that however the season starts it's going to be insane, but I do think that eventually Sawyer will open up to Kate about how he's feeling about Juliet and maybe even his feelings for Kate.

IMO it would be stupid for the writers to bring back Jate when we already were able to watch them as a family. I think that to a certain extent they do care about what the fans think. Since they gave us a season for Skate (S3), they had to give us a Jatey season (which obviously is semi S4).

They wouldn't have separated Sawyer and Kate for 3 years, just to bring them back together and have them NOT be together. She had the chance to be with Jack and be happy for 3 years...but really she was only with him for a short amount of time and it didn't work out...because of who? Sawyer.

I have faith that our ship will sail into the sunset at the end of the show.

[angela]

producers have indicated that the character of 'Jack' is considered as Lost's main 'hero'. They were going to kill this character in the pilot until they realized it just wasn't going to work if they did. They have also said, and Matthew Fox has confirmed, that he is the only actor who know how this all ends. That being said, usually-the 'hero' winds up alone, because his 'destiny' is too great, and there's nothing left of his life or himself to share with someone else: no room and also usually no time or opportunity. With these thoughts in mind, I think that Sawyer and Kate are on the horizon for season 6-unless of course, one of them also dies tragically.

[Matarreyes]

your confidence in your capability of separating fiction from reality is misplaced.
A wonderfully professional remark. Is there any place on this forum to complain about mods insulting members?

About Jack being "hero", many people see it this way, but I don´t know if the producers ever stated this on record. Lost is a show about many people, and I at least think about it as having multiple protagonists. Is Jack more important then Locke? Why? Because he´s younger and more handsome? His story sure isn´t more intense. Season 3 saw Ben become an almost protagonist, and Juliet was almost more important then Kate as a female lead. Second part of season 5 was no doubt Sawyer´s. That said, I agree with the Jack will end up alone theory, and this agreement was born from what I saw in the finale. He has too much to atone for:
- he´s still running from the fact his treatment of Locke lead to his suicide.
- he still hasn´t apologised to Kate about making her cry.
- when it becomes clear his plan didn´t work (which is my opinion) and it cost their lives to Juliet and possibly Sayid, I expect him to have the decency to be crushed about it.

So sure, he can still be pursuing Kate in s6, but will it earn him any points? Will it restore him in the viewers eyes? Will it lead him to be seen as the planned hero? Sure not. If Jack ends up happy with Kate, he will become one of the most hated show hero of TV history. He and Kate are 4th and 3th most hated Lost characters right now on Dark Ufo polls (1st and 2nd original characters, second only to a women-hitting Phil and maniac Radzinski). For them to end together will be a writing suicide.

The writers will have to have them separated and washed out of their hatred separately. Jack´s only road to redemption is to let go of Kate (every recap bashes him for making decisions based on his want to be with her - in stark contrast with Sawyer who managed to let her go when the situation called for it). Then he can dedicate himself to his mythology business 24/7. Kate´s redemption is to choose once and for all, because as everyone already pointed out, her jumping ships and taking both men for granted was what ruined her character in the eyes of casual viewers. To have her rehabilitated, her choice will have to be not the easy one (lovestuck Jack) but the risky hopeless one (you know who), and she will have to stick to her choice against overwhelming odds and Sawyer´s stubborn resistance.

Bottom line is, as always, SKATE!

[Prince_Rajani]

A wonderfully professional remark. Is there any place on this forum to complain about mods insulting members?

About Jack being "hero", many people see it this way, but I don´t know if the producers ever stated this on record. Lost is a show about many people, and I at least think about it as having multiple protagonists. Is Jack more important then Locke? Why? Because he´s younger and more handsome? His story sure isn´t more intense. Season 3 saw Ben become an almost protagonist, and Juliet was almost more important then Kate as a female lead. Second part of season 5 was no doubt Sawyer´s. That said, I agree with the Jack will end up alone theory, and this agreement was born from what I saw in the finale. He has too much to atone for:
- he´s still running from the fact his treatment of Locke lead to his suicide.
- he still hasn´t apologised to Kate about making her cry.
- when it becomes clear his plan didn´t work (which is my opinion) and it cost their lives to Juliet and possibly Sayid, I expect him to have the decency to be crushed about it.

So sure, he can still be pursuing Kate in s6, but will it earn him any points? Will it restore him in the viewers eyes? Will it lead him to be seen as the planned hero? Sure not. If Jack ends up happy with Kate, he will become one of the most hated show hero of TV history. He and Kate are 4th and 3th most hated Lost characters right now on Dark Ufo polls (1st and 2nd original characters, second only to a women-hitting Phil and maniac Radzinski). For them to end together will be a writing suicide.

The writers will have to have them separated and washed out of their hatred separately. Jack´s only road to redemption is to let go of Kate (every recap bashes him for making decisions based on his want to be with her - in stark contrast with Sawyer who managed to let her go when the situation called for it). Then he can dedicate himself to his mythology business 24/7. Kate´s redemption is to choose once and for all, because as everyone already pointed out, her jumping ships and taking both men for granted was what ruined her character in the eyes of casual viewers. To have her rehabilitated, her choice will have to be not the easy one (lovestuck Jack) but the risky hopeless one (you know who), and she will have to stick to her choice against overwhelming odds and Sawyer´s stubborn resistance.

Bottom line is, as always, SKATE!

Excellent post! You are a Skate miracle, your optimism brought me back to this ship! :w00t: As for mod complaints, take them to this thread: http://lost-forum.com/showthread.php?t=70845&page=5

Keep up the good work!

[luminous]

That is why Suliet was so loved and accepted: People got sick of Kate's antics within this triangle. It's harsh to say, but you cannot deny there is some truth to it. I think WHH came too little too late for a lot of people to change their mind about her. Sawyer being as loved as he is and as popular as he is doesn't hurt either. They want him happy.



It sure as hell doesn't mean their romantic relationship is over either or that there isn't a chance she will still end up with him. There is a great chance. I think as it stands right now, Jate are much closer to being endgame than Skate is simply because of the time factor. Sawyer and Kate are so far from where they should be while Jate, as disgusting as the relationship is, is closer to being rebuilt and fleshed out because they have been together more than Skate has the past couple seasons(years).

I agree with everything you've been saying. I honestly don't see how Skate can go on now, or how it has any advantage over Jate. I think it was made pretty clear on the finale that Kate is turning more towards Jack than towards Sawyer, and I don't think anyone would be crazy enough to put Skate together while Sawyer is grieving the loss of Juliet.

I'm an old-time Skater. I've been a Skater in this forum since late 2005, before many of you were here, and while I'm honestly not trying to pull the 'I'm older than you are' game, I have been called a jater several times in private, by people I met here, because of this very opinion. I'm just saying this because for me, there's nothing more ridiculous than that. I've been through a couple of 'almost' ship wars here, stood behind when 90% of the skaters from my time left, and I still call myself a skater. It's just that I don't see it happening anymore, not after this season.

I also ship Suliet, that's true, because ever since this season started, Darlton have only ruined Kate for me, and she was my favourite character since season 1. Not even her episode this season saved her for me, she was ruined. And the fact they made Juliet and Sawyer so loveable (they're winning every poll you see out there, there's no way to ignore it), I think, is to cover the loss of Skate. I think that in this finale, when the bomb was supposed to go off and you see the couples looking at each other, Kate's eyes turning to Jack were the definitive nod towards Jate. That's why I don't think it's over, not at all. I think Jate is far from getting closure. Honestly, if anyone got an ounce of that in this finale, it's us.

Don't get me wrong, I love Skate. I just think it will be very hard for it to happen after all of this.

[Katie27]

A wonderfully professional remark. Is there any place on this forum to complain about mods insulting members?

About Jack being "hero", many people see it this way, but I don´t know if the producers ever stated this on record. Lost is a show about many people, and I at least think about it as having multiple protagonists. Is Jack more important then Locke? Why? Because he´s younger and more handsome? His story sure isn´t more intense. Season 3 saw Ben become an almost protagonist, and Juliet was almost more important then Kate as a female lead. Second part of season 5 was no doubt Sawyer´s. That said, I agree with the Jack will end up alone theory, and this agreement was born from what I saw in the finale. He has too much to atone for:
- he´s still running from the fact his treatment of Locke lead to his suicide.
- he still hasn´t apologised to Kate about making her cry.
- when it becomes clear his plan didn´t work (which is my opinion) and it cost their lives to Juliet and possibly Sayid, I expect him to have the decency to be crushed about it.

So sure, he can still be pursuing Kate in s6, but will it earn him any points? Will it restore him in the viewers eyes? Will it lead him to be seen as the planned hero? Sure not. If Jack ends up happy with Kate, he will become one of the most hated show hero of TV history. He and Kate are 4th and 3th most hated Lost characters right now on Dark Ufo polls (1st and 2nd original characters, second only to a women-hitting Phil and maniac Radzinski). For them to end together will be a writing suicide.

The writers will have to have them separated and washed out of their hatred separately. Jack´s only road to redemption is to let go of Kate (every recap bashes him for making decisions based on his want to be with her - in stark contrast with Sawyer who managed to let her go when the situation called for it). Then he can dedicate himself to his mythology business 24/7. Kate´s redemption is to choose once and for all, because as everyone already pointed out, her jumping ships and taking both men for granted was what ruined her character in the eyes of casual viewers. To have her rehabilitated, her choice will have to be not the easy one (lovestuck Jack) but the risky hopeless one (you know who), and she will have to stick to her choice against overwhelming odds and Sawyer´s stubborn resistance.

Bottom line is, as always, SKATE!

:w00t: I love your posts!!!!

The writers have said point blank that Kate will end up with one of them. I really don't see them rebuilding Jate romantically.

Jack has to figure his crap out. He's become a man of faith. I think his purpose is bigger than trying to pursue Kate and trying to make her love him again.

It was obvious in her episode that she was raising Aaron in place of Sawyer. Aaron changed Kate into a compassionate loving mother. I think that she really needed him, not only to fill the void Sawyer left, but also because he could make her into a completely Selfless person.

I feel that Juliet did the same for Sawyer. If we all remember, in the beginning of the season Sawyer was pretty upset at the prospect of Kate being dead. Locke convinced him that she wasn't dead, so he had a bit of hope that Locke would bring him back, but even still he needed something or someone to get him through the loss of Kate (loss meaning the fact that he would never see her again, not necessarily that she was dead.) So...I think his con with the Dharma initiative and Juliet were the ones that did that. It is no doubt that Sawyer loved Juliet, but I still think that he loves Kate more...because we didn't see anything about Juliet's relationship. Seeing them happy doesn't necessarily equal complete love. Sawyer was still looking for Kate. He still had feelings for her. Him saying "I can barely remember what she looks like" is a load of horse hockey. I think he was saying it more for himself than for Horace, because he wanted to believe that he hasn't been living a lie for 3 years...but he really has, from Jim LaFleur to Juliet.



That's why I don't think it's over, not at all. I think Jate is far from getting closure. Honestly, if anyone got an ounce of that in this finale, it's us.

I think it would be pretty close-minded of us all to say that Jate is completley over no doubt about it, because the writers could always go back to it, but it would be really dumb of the writers to go that way. They will only have time to rebuild one relationship. (Because quite honestly if they have her go and sleep with both of them this season, I WILL be done with shipping and I won't give a crap who she ends up with because it will piss me off to no end.) But if they rebuild the Jate relationship, to me it would be completely redundant. I feel that it would be a wrong move for the writers. But that being said, Kate looking at Jack instead of Sawyer, to me has no effect on who she loves more. Juliet and Sawyer were looking at each other and Jack and Kate were looking at each other. To me it said "Goodbye." They knew (or at least they thought, because Jack's little plan was supposed to work), that it would be the last time they would see each other. It was more of a goodbye than anything else I think.

Don't get me wrong, I love Skate. I just think it will be very hard for it to happen after all of this.

I see what you mean because obviously they can't just throw them together since Juliet died. But I honestly didn't think that Sawyer would ever get over Kate...well guess what, it happened (until she came back and all his old feelings came back). Sawyer still loves Kate. He will need someone to comfort him. I don't know how they will do it. Hopefully they will have another time gap because I don't think they should get together immediately after Juliet's death. I think they should wait. I would like to see it happen in maybe the 10th or 11th episode and then the rest of the season can focus on a family. I know it's totally wishful thinking on my part because we probably won't be able to see any type of happy family. It will probably be in the very last scene that we see who Kate chooses.
Anyway...I think it will be just as hard to rebuild the Jate relationship. How do you come back from a broken engagement? I think that Kate still loves Jack, but it's obvious she loves Sawyer too. I think we've basically got a complete re-start of where the relationships are, it really could go either way I suppose, but I still hold to my statement that I think it would be pretty stupid of the writers to try and bring back Jate when we've already seen their relationship fail. It would be boring if they tried to bring it back.

[ainaramagu]

Hi from Spain!!
No doubt season 6 is going to be Jackass season. But only because he is clearly going to die to become the super hero of the story:rant: Darlton have already hinted about it, do you remember nonsense episode " Jack goes to Thailand"? All the stuff about his tattoo? When I saw it I thought WTF??? But now it makes really sense!! I can´t remember the exact meaning but it was something like " you are not one of them, you are the leader and you,re gonna be alone" Someone remember?? It sounds clear to me, Jacko will end up sitting on his lonely bloody throne ( Conan, anybody?) and Leia will confess her love to Han Solo ( or Ron, what you prefer:rolleyes:). This has been the plan from the very beginning.:w00t:
Jate can,t be the end game, is too boring, too old staff. The only reason Darlton hasn,t given us Skate in silver plate this season, is because they are keeping the best wine for the end of the meal. Building Skate again is a challenge, is going to be difficult but I,m sure they are talented enough to make it great ( as they always do) Don,t forget who wrote the most Skatey episode this season, WHH.:D
I love your posts too Matarreyes!! You are my Skate-Pepito-Grillo!!!
Enjoy the summer, guys season 6 is ours!!!!!!!!!! Skate is fate, and they,ll give it to :banana:us on a golden plate!!

[Vesna]

I think, is to cover the loss of Skate. I think that in this finale, when the bomb was supposed to go off and you see the couples looking at each other, Kate's eyes turning to Jack were the definitive nod towards Jate. T

I can start arguing that Kate did not turn her head to look at anyone. She was already staring at the scene of the action and she was looked at, then nodded. How about that?!. And please a 10 minutes couple to cover something, that we watched for 5 years?. Nobody in their right minds will do that.

[MikeySSC]

Back for some quick remarks. And just to relieve boredom, I guess.

Im with Luminous on this one. Dont get me wrong, Skate could still work (theoretically), but it would have to be the brainchild of some writer that decides to use the good old "Three/Etc. Years Later" c..p.

He will need someone to comfort him. I don't know how they will do it. Hopefully they will have another time gap because I don't think they should get together immediately after Juliet's death. I think they should wait. I would like to see it happen in maybe the 10th or 11th episode

Which - according to the general theory that they all (with or without Juliet) flash back to their own timeline, while preserving their memories - will probably end up being about 1-2 weeks after Juliet's maybe-Death. I dont want that. At all.

I was talking to some people on TWOP a couple days ago about this too, and the general concensus was that Skate could work if it was resolved through flashforwards or timejumps, but not in the linear present timeline. It would cheapen not only Suliet, but also Sawyer's character to a point of little sympathy from anyone in the audience except Skaters. And I dont see the writers doing this to one of the their most beloved characters. I think Juliet's maybe-Death sets Sawyer up for the last long ride towards redemption. He's gonna be straddling the void between regression and redemption next year. And for some reason I dont even see how Kate or anyone else besides Sawyer will factor into that equation in the end.

I also dont think Jate is over by a long shot. I think Skate/Jate is on somewhat equal footing right now. I'll admit that I wanted to kick something right after the finale because of the contrived longing looks between the couple with no chemistry - but we all suspected that it would happen. My hope (and gut feeling) is that they'll bump off Jack in the second to last or the last episode, and he'll forever be remembered as the big prancing hero of all that is LOST - to hell with all the other character sacrifices - Jack will get the accolades. But I dont see him being alive by the end of it. Unfortunately that wont make up for watching Jack fumble the ball for 6 seasons straight. But it's a comforting thought none the less.

[Katie27]

Which - according to the general theory that they all (with or without Juliet) flash back to their own timeline, while preserving their memories - will probably end up being about 1-2 weeks after Juliet's maybe-Death. I dont want that. At all.

I was talking to some people on TWOP a couple days ago about this too, and the general concensus was that Skate could work if it was resolved through flashforwards or timejumps, but not in the linear present timeline. It would cheapen not only Suliet, but also Sawyer's character to a point of little sympathy from anyone in the audience except Skaters. And I dont see the writers doing this to one of the their most beloved characters. I think Juliet's maybe-Death sets Sawyer up for the last long ride towards redemption. He's gonna be straddling the void between regression and redemption next year. And for some reason I dont even see how Kate or anyone else besides Sawyer will factor into that equation in the end.

When I said episode 11 or 12, I meant by means of flashfoward. I defintely don't want to see them hooking up right after Juliet dies. I totally agree with you that it would cheapen the characters. I meant that they could do something like what they did with LaFleur and have them be together in the future.
BUT I also would like to see Kate comforting Sawyer...in a totally platonic way.

[luminous]

I can start arguing that Kate did not turn her head to look at anyone. She was already staring at the scene of the action and she was looked at, then nodded. How about that?!. And please a 10 minutes couple to cover something, that we watched for 5 years?. Nobody in their right minds will do that.

That's clearly an over-analysis of something that was meant to be looked at as an emotional moment. Also, 5 years or 10 minutes mean nothing. Suliet beat Skate and Jate in almost every poll since the finale. How about that?

I'm not being aggressive towards you, so I'd appreciate it if you'd tone it down with me.

I think it would be pretty close-minded of us all to say that Jate is completley over no doubt about it, because the writers could always go back to it, but it would be really dumb of the writers to go that way. They will only have time to rebuild one relationship. (Because quite honestly if they have her go and sleep with both of them this season, I WILL be done with shipping and I won't give a crap who she ends up with because it will piss me off to no end.) But if they rebuild the Jate relationship, to me it would be completely redundant. I feel that it would be a wrong move for the writers. But that being said, Kate looking at Jack instead of Sawyer, to me has no effect on who she loves more. Juliet and Sawyer were looking at each other and Jack and Kate were looking at each other. To me it said "Goodbye." They knew (or at least they thought, because Jack's little plan was supposed to work), that it would be the last time they would see each other. It was more of a goodbye than anything else I think.
They've never been afraid of being redundant, so why start now? :p Also, if you thought you were going to die, or at least not see any of those people again, who would you look at? The person you love the most or the person you kind of love? It was an instinctive move, meant to be seen as such, in my opinion. That's why I think that sets the tone for what they are going to do next.

Which - according to the general theory that they all (with or without Juliet) flash back to their own timeline, while preserving their memories - will probably end up being about 1-2 weeks after Juliet's maybe-Death. I dont want that. At all.

I was talking to some people on TWOP a couple days ago about this too, and the general concensus was that Skate could work if it was resolved through flashforwards or timejumps, but not in the linear present timeline. It would cheapen not only Suliet, but also Sawyer's character to a point of little sympathy from anyone in the audience except Skaters. And I dont see the writers doing this to one of the their most beloved characters. I think Juliet's maybe-Death sets Sawyer up for the last long ride towards redemption. He's gonna be straddling the void between regression and redemption next year. And for some reason I dont even see how Kate or anyone else besides Sawyer will factor into that equation in the end.
I would have to see Kate used as an instrument of comfort as much as I would hate to see Sawyer forget about Juliet almost immediately. I'm with you on that one: Sawyer has a long way ahead of himself as a person, and Kate's not necessarily the best company for that. I think that's a ride I would like to see him take alone, but that's me, that's the way I see Sawyer do it. I see him coming out of it through solitude more than through Kate's comfort. But that's Sawyer's character discussion. :) If they would find a way of, through a LONG passage of time, get them together in the end, after he's "healed", I'd be thrilled. But anything before he grieves Juliet properly would be terrible for the three characters (Sawyer, Kate, Juliet).

[Debbie]

I agree that it would cheapen their charcters to just have them get together so soon.

I think whats important here is that Both Kate and Sawyers relationships broke down, pretty much because of each other.

Kates promise to Sawyer destroyed her relationship with Jack, she tried to keep in secret to save their relationship.

Signs from Sawyer convice Jules that he is still in love with kate, and Sawyer tries to fight this, tries to make it work.

Ultimately, Jack and Jules "gave up" in a way. Sounds like a skate build up,yes?

But no. They sneak in some Jate-y moments.

I'm just totally sick of the love triangle, or whatever other shape you call it. I wish they would have settled it this season.

[Katie27]

They've never been afraid of being redundant, so why start now? :p Also, if you thought you were going to die, or at least not see any of those people again, who would you look at? The person you love the most or the person you kind of love? It was an instinctive move, meant to be seen as such, in my opinion. That's why I think that sets the tone for what they are going to do next.


But anything before he grieves Juliet properly would be terrible for the three characters (Sawyer, Kate, Juliet).

I don't think that they thought they were going to die. They thought that they were going to live and never crash on the island. So Kate was looking at Jack to tell him "Go ahead...erase our lives." I think if she had looked at Sawyer, she would have seen him looking at Juliet. I do think that Kate loves Jack. I think that Sawyer loves Juliet...but I don't think it's necessarily telling who loves who more. We'll have to see where they take it next season, but I still think there's a huge crack in the Jate relationship. I think that there's just as much likelihood that they could rebuild Skate.

As for Skate getting together in the 6th season...I really really do think that Sawyer needs to mourn. Even before the finale when there was speculation that Juliet was going to die, I said that they need to give Sawyer a significant mourning period. Because it doesn't really matter who he loves "more" at that point...it's the fact that he was with Juliet for 3 years. They had each other's back for 3 years. We don't know how long they were sleeping together, but they were obviously a couple and they obviously had love. That's why Sawyer definitely needs to mourn.
I feel that they're going to have Sawyer be really pissed at first actually. I think he's going to blame himself and I think he's also going to blame Jack for Juliet's "death". And I think Kate will try to comfort him, but he won't want her comfort. I think he'll push her away. Maybe even push her back toward Jack...but eventually they will make their way back to each other. (I think.)

[luminous]

I don't think that they thought they were going to die. They thought that they were going to live and never crash on the island. So Kate was looking at Jack to tell him "Go ahead...erase our lives." I think if she had looked at Sawyer, she would have seen him looking at Juliet. I do think that Kate loves Jack. I think that Sawyer loves Juliet...but I don't think it's necessarily telling who loves who more. We'll have to see where they take it next season, but I still think there's a huge crack in the Jate relationship. I think that there's just as much likelihood that they could rebuild Skate.

I think we can go on and on about this and get nowhere. It's a matter of what you see in a gesture. And what I see is "If I'm never going to remember what happened here, this is the last face I want to see". People will take it differently, it's a matter of opinion. We'll only be truly sure when season 6 starts.

As for Skate getting together in the 6th season...I really really do think that Sawyer needs to mourn. Even before the finale when there was speculation that Juliet was going to die, I said that they need to give Sawyer a significant mourning period. Because it doesn't really matter who he loves "more" at that point...it's the fact that he was with Juliet for 3 years. They had each other's back for 3 years. We don't know how long they were sleeping together, but they were obviously a couple and they obviously had love. That's why Sawyer definitely needs to mourn.
I think we often (and I include myself in this) forget that Sawyer and Kate spent what? Four months together? Sawyer and Juliet spent three years. Their relationship is expected to be deeper, more solid, and I think Josh and Liz played it wonderfully. That's why I think his mourning proccess would be long, painful. I agree that he'll probably push Kate away, as he'll probably blame her for getting them back there, but also because he really needs, in my opinion, to be alone for this ride. I would love Sawyer and Kate to be together in the end, but only if Sawyer made this journey. Anything less would be pointless.

[MikeySSC]

I think we often (and I include myself in this) forget that Sawyer and Kate spent what? Four months together? Sawyer and Juliet spent three years. Their relationship is expected to be deeper, more solid, and I think Josh and Liz played it wonderfully. That's why I think his mourning proccess would be long, painful. I agree that he'll probably push Kate away, as he'll probably blame her for getting them back there, but also because he really needs, in my opinion, to be alone for this ride. I would love Sawyer and Kate to be together in the end, but only if Sawyer made this journey. Anything less would be pointless.

Exactly.

No matter whether you liked Suliet or not, there's not really any way around the fact that the relationship was a longterm one, and both characters had found some sort of peace and tranquility in each other. And considering Juliet and Sawyer as characters.. that's quite a feat. Sawyer's grief in the finale was pretty overwhelming, and the thing that hit me right away was that the writers wouldn't be able to shove that scene under the carpet just to move the Skate-plotline along at a hastened pace. It would take time before they would be able to move on from that.

I saw someone suggest that the writers made some sort of outro montage with no dialogue and just a musical score right at the end. Some sort of individual goodbye to each character in during the last turningpoint for them - on island or off island. I thought that sounded like a pretty good idea. And it could actually work quite well with Skate as well.

I'd love for Sawyer and Kate to wind up together, but if the writers shove them together in some hamfisted way, negating what I saw in the finale - I'm gonna turn the tv off pronto. Suliet AND Skate deserve much much much better than that.

But overall.. I dont really trust the writers to solve the situation (that they created themselves, mind you) in a creative and deserving manner. I liked a lot of things in S5, but it also made me very very wary of how the writers will treat character motivations when it comes down to crunchtime.

[Lilo]

I rarely post here, I'm more of a lurker but I just wanted to say that the writer's have a lot of options when it comes to getting Sawyer and Kate together in season six, some of which we may never even think about. One option that makes sense is the one put out there by the writer at Entertainment weekly, his theory is that the people touched by Jacob will retain their memories, and Juliet who wasn't touched will not remember. IF Juliet's alive next season her appearance would void any grieving on Sawyer's part, and if she has no memory of him then his turning to Kate would not affect her in any way. Sawyer could then come to see the huge gift she gave him by detonating that bomb, not to mention what it will do for all the other character's. Sawyer would probably look at her heartbroken and maybe even consider starting something up with her again, but I believe he would then think better of it, and finally admit that Juliet was right, and the guilt he might have felt about loving Kate would dissolve.

The other idea I've read and also thought of too is Juliet appearing to Sawyer to give him a kick in the pants in regards to Kate. I can hear her saying to him that she doesn't want to have died in vain, she knew his heart is with Kate and to see him throw that away after her sacrifice for him and others would not sit well.

If they want Sawyer and Kate together they will bring them together. At this point in the story I feel Kate will either end up with Sawyer or be alone. I doubt the writer's would have Kate settle for Jack after making it clear that Sawyer was always her first choice. Jack and Juliet were in the same boat in regards to Kate and Sawyer and they were both acutely aware of that.

Anyway that's my two cents.

[Lyly Ford]

guys, do i need to remind you there is ONE season to see ? do you want to see skate in the last minutes of finale serie or what ? 'cause not me and i'm sorry maybe sawyer and juliet got a romance but you can't forget skate was here from the beginning and sorry but don't be blind to believe sawyer will mourn juliet's death so long, there is a lot to see next year and if the war is coming, i don't think time to mourn will be during all the season !

[Katie27]

guys, do i need to remind you there is ONE season to see ? do you want to see skate in the last minutes of finale serie or what ? 'cause not me and i'm sorry maybe sawyer and juliet got a romance but you can't forget skate was here from the beginning and sorry but don't be blind to believe sawyer will mourn juliet's death so long, there is a lot to see next year and if the war is coming, i don't think time to mourn will be during all the season !

I agree with you because I don't think that there will be time for him to actually spend beside himself with grief. But I don't think that Sawyer and Kate should immediately get back together. I think that they should wait. But at the same time I do agree with you that I would actually like to see their romance develop. That's why I feel that episode 10 or 11 would be a good place to start (with the flashfowards) They will have time to show a wedding and a baby, which is really all I want. :)

[Lyly Ford]

I agree with you because I don't think that there will be time for him to actually spend beside himself with grief. But I don't think that Sawyer and Kate should immediately get back together. I think that they should wait. But at the same time I do agree with you that I would actually like to see their romance develop. That's why I feel that episode 10 or 11 would be a good place to start (with the flashfowards) They will have time to show a wedding and a baby, which is really all I want. :)

do i say i want skate together in season premiere ? hell no ! i just said there is one season and they'll not waste time to make mourn sawyer when we all know this YEARS kate will end up with one man in this season and they never said very very end so i think they'll build sawyer and kate close, we'll get angst and then in sawyer or kate's centric BAM skate will happen, middle of the season is fine 'cause first part will be to prepare the second and here i think no real time for romance so stop with this suliet was the big romance of lost, please give me a break, i respect the couple don't make look suliet can win over 5 years of skate !

[Katie27]

do i say i want skate together in season premiere ? hell no ! i just said there is one season and they'll not waste time to make mourn sawyer when we all know this YEARS kate will end up with one man in this season and they never said very very end so i think they'll build sawyer and kate close, we'll get angst and then in sawyer or kate's centric BAM skate will happen, middle of the season is fine 'cause first part will be to prepare the second and here i think no real time for romance so stop with this suliet was the big romance of lost, please give me a break, i respect the couple don't make look suliet can win over 5 years of skate !

I don't think that Suliet is the big romance of Lost at all. I totally agree that Skate has way more on the romance than Skate. I actually think that the 3 months Skate was together is way more important than the 3 years Suliet was together. But I do think that Sawyer had love for Juliet and it's going to take him some time to want to start a relationship. I don't know what the 6th season will bring. If/When the writers bring back Skate, they're going to have to do it slowly. I don't know how long they're going to take to rebuild it, but I do think it should be a fairly significant time period.

[tiny one]

I rarely post here, I'm more of a lurker but I just wanted to say that the writer's have a lot of options when it comes to getting Sawyer and Kate together in season six, some of which we may never even think about. One option that makes sense is the one put out there by the writer at Entertainment weekly, his theory is that the people touched by Jacob will retain their memories, and Juliet who wasn't touched will not remember. IF Juliet's alive next season her appearance would void any grieving on Sawyer's part, and if she has no memory of him then his turning to Kate would not affect her in any way. Sawyer could then come to see the huge gift she gave him by detonating that bomb, not to mention what it will do for all the other character's. Sawyer would probably look at her heartbroken and maybe even consider starting something up with her again, but I believe he would then think better of it, and finally admit that Juliet was right, and the guilt he might have felt about loving Kate would dissolve.

The other idea I've read and also thought of too is Juliet appearing to Sawyer to give him a kick in the pants in regards to Kate. I can hear her saying to him that she doesn't want to have died in vain, she knew his heart is with Kate and to see him throw that away after her sacrifice for him and others would not sit well.

If they want Sawyer and Kate together they will bring them together. At this point in the story I feel Kate will either end up with Sawyer or be alone. I doubt the writer's would have Kate settle for Jack after making it clear that Sawyer was always her first choice. Jack and Juliet were in the same boat in regards to Kate and Sawyer and they were both acutely aware of that.

Anyway that's my two cents.

Awesome post! :D I agree with you.

[Lyly Ford]

I don't think that Suliet is the big romance of Lost at all. I totally agree that Skate has way more on the romance than Skate. I actually think that the 3 months Skate was together is way more important than the 3 years Suliet was together. But I do think that Sawyer had love for Juliet and it's going to take him some time to want to start a relationship. I don't know what the 6th season will bring. If/When the writers bring back Skate, they're going to have to do it slowly. I don't know how long they're going to take to rebuild it, but I do think it should be a fairly significant time period.

i don't mean YOU, i mean people here in general :shifty:
i really wonder if we're on skate's thread or moved in suliet's fairytale ;)

[jasminectart]

do i say i want skate together in season premiere ? hell no ! i just said there is one season and they'll not waste time to make mourn sawyer when we all know this YEARS kate will end up with one man in this season and they never said very very end so i think they'll build sawyer and kate close, we'll get angst and then in sawyer or kate's centric BAM skate will happen, middle of the season is fine 'cause first part will be to prepare the second and here i think no real time for romance so stop with this suliet was the big romance of lost, please give me a break, i respect the couple don't make look suliet can win over 5 years of skate !

Please! :p

It's a skater place, Lyly, it still is! :D But I've read a lot of pro-Jate and pro-Suliet comments here lately. :eh:

[Lyly Ford]

Please! :p

It's a skater place, Lyly, it still is! :D But I've read a lot of pro-Jate and pro-Suliet comments here lately. :eh:

no wonder why lyly took a plane to go somewhere else those days, long hiatus and i feel already like it was months so no thanks for me but it's skate's thread and as you jazz, i was "amazed" too reading here
i just mean, if you think sawyer will spend days mourning juliet, you don't know him, he'll be different but he'll do what uncle doug said what is done is done moto

[jasminectart]

no wonder why lyly took a plane to go somewhere else those days, long hiatus and i feel already like it was months so no thanks for me but it's skate's thread and as you jazz, i was "amazed" too reading here
i just mean, if you think sawyer will spend days mourning juliet, you don't know him, he'll be different but he'll do what uncle doug said what is done is done moto

Not even 3 week yet!!! :shock: It's gonna be a LONG time... :(

I don't think Sawyer will be mourning Juliet for more than 2 epis, if it happens, we don't know what's gonna happen, maybe they'll be safe in LA in the first scene of S6 or they'll come back to 2007 and they will lose their memories, nobody knows what will happen... Perhaps the only grieve period Sawyer will have will be the one we are suposing here until next season starts, with a unknown scenario is hard to think actually what we'll actually see. :no:

[Matarreyes]

IF Juliet's alive next season and if she has no memory of him then Sawyer would probably look at her heartbroken and maybe even consider starting something up with her again, but I believe he would then think better of it, and finally admit that Juliet was right, and the guilt he might have felt about loving Kate would dissolve.

The other idea I've read and also thought of too is Juliet appearing to Sawyer to give him a kick in the pants in regards to Kate.
Excellent points! You just beat me to this same remark! What people are consistently forgetting about is the fact that each season of Lost in UNPREDICTABLE through the hiatus. So, we can´t talk about how "impossible" it is to rebuild Skate or how we don´t want it to be rushed/not in character. Rest easy and give some credit to the people who have 5 seasons of wonderful writing under the belt: if it is their intention, they already know how Skate will be done. So why don´t we concentrate on the signs they gave us that suggest it is, in fact, their intention (namely WWH episode for Kate and Suliet pre-death formal rupture for Sawyer). Those two milestones were put there for something, and it´s sure as hell wasn´t a rebuild of Jate.

For an imaginative writer, there are many ways to rebuild Skate, and since no one here works as executive producer for ABC we won´t guess which way they´ll go. The easiest is the suggested above: Juliet is alive, maybe even a respected gynecologist off island, with no memory of the island life. What would Sawyer have to grieve then? Only his own loneliness. And I respectfully disagree with the post that stated he´d have to go through a lenghthy mourning period, alone. He has been alone his whole life. Right after the crash, when his life-long vengeance went out so badly, he was dealing with that alone and it was not healthy, not healing and not mature. All his story has been about letting people in. He shouldn´t start going back now.

Oh, and I really understand people being negative about Skate future. Don´t worry, we´d never think you are not one of us for having trouble keeping faith! It´s just that Darlton love to give us heart attacks... Cruel, cruel people. But, they did say there will be Skate vs Jate in S6, and Kate will choose. So how can we claim Skate will be difficult and untasteful, when they already said they are planning to have (some) of it?

[kerry's lost]

Did they say that about Jate vs Skate and Kate will choose. I missed that. If they did say that then Skate will have to be built up again because Jate don't need much buidling they are there. They have no reason not to be together if they want to be.

[jessica1984]

I agree with everything you've been saying. I honestly don't see how Skate can go on now, or how it has any advantage over Jate. I think it was made pretty clear on the finale that Kate is turning more towards Jack than towards Sawyer, and I don't think anyone would be crazy enough to put Skate together while Sawyer is grieving the loss of Juliet.

I'm an old-time Skater. I've been a Skater in this forum since late 2005, before many of you were here, and while I'm honestly not trying to pull the 'I'm older than you are' game, I have been called a jater several times in private, by people I met here, because of this very opinion. I'm just saying this because for me, there's nothing more ridiculous than that. I've been through a couple of 'almost' ship wars here, stood behind when 90% of the skaters from my time left, and I still call myself a skater. It's just that I don't see it happening anymore, not after this season.

I also ship Suliet, that's true, because ever since this season started, Darlton have only ruined Kate for me, and she was my favourite character since season 1. Not even her episode this season saved her for me, she was ruined. And the fact they made Juliet and Sawyer so loveable (they're winning every poll you see out there, there's no way to ignore it), I think, is to cover the loss of Skate. I think that in this finale, when the bomb was supposed to go off and you see the couples looking at each other, Kate's eyes turning to Jack were the definitive nod towards Jate. That's why I don't think it's over, not at all. I think Jate is far from getting closure. Honestly, if anyone got an ounce of that in this finale, it's us.

Don't get me wrong, I love Skate. I just think it will be very hard for it to happen after all of this.

And I agree with you.:p And this part especially:

I think that in this finale, when the bomb was supposed to go off and you see the couples looking at each other, Kate's eyes turning to Jack were the definitive nod towards Jate.

I don't know if that was the definitive moment where we saw Kate's choice or not, but I know this: They were facing the possibility of either dying, or never have had known or met each other, and yet knowing all that, Kate looked at Jack and not Sawyer. Tears in her eyes for Jack. Saying goodbye to Jack. That little moment told me alot.

If I was facing the possiblity of losing the man I supposedly am in love with, I would look at him and not the man I bascially didn't want nothing to do with just a couple days earlier.:eh: I mean, she just did everything but come out and tell Jack to go to hell. Now she's looking at him with tears in her eyes because she may be about to lose him.:rolleyes:

And yeah, I know Sawyer looked at Juliet, but I also know without a doubt loves Kate more. He has proven that to me all series long and that look to her during the Rose/Bernard scene just amplified it even more. I can't say the same for Kate. I don't know if she loves Sawyer more. Everytime we start thinking that yes, Sawyer is her choice and the man she loves, something Jatey happens that totally almost negates it. We get WHH, then we get Kate all sad and crying over Jack wanting to erase their past.

I still need a lot more from Kate than I do Sawyer. I don't think that will ever change.

[MikeySSC]

I still need a lot more from Kate than I do Sawyer. I don't think that will ever change.


That's the crux of the problem, really.

I dont know how some people really want Sawyer to be the one that steps up at this point. Throughout every single scene (more or less) that Skate has shared since the beginning, Sawyer has been the giver - and rarely the receiver. I understand that the writers were trying to go for ambiguity and mysteries and all the rest of that s..t, but what they really did was to have Kate step on Sawyer repeatedly throughout the course of this series.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a Sawyer fan first, and my title as Skater comes in at second place. And when I step away from the hopes and glances and banter .. I dont really feel all that happy with Kate's character anymore. I personally believe that alot of the Skate in S5 was the writers handing out smoke and mirrors. We basically got nothing; and yes, that includes WHH as well. Every single thing we've gotten has been either negated or pissed away on mindless triangle-drama and tensionbuilding. The only real thing in Skate is that Sawyer loves Kate on some primal level - and that goes a long long way. Unfortunately I dont see the writers turning the Jate sob-story around at this point.

They seperate Skate, then build up Jate. Then they "re-build" Jate, and gives Sawyer 3 years of happiness with another woman. They then keep up the Jate, and (possibly) kill off Juliet in (arguably) the most brutal manner ever administered on this show. We get to see just how much Juliet's death affected Sawyer, in great detail (whether one might want to or not) - and right down to the last second of dropping that bomb - Jate was smeared all over the screen.

To me all this doesnt add up to a long-running Skate plotline in S6. And definitely not the romantic sort. The writers have two choices with Skate at this time if they want to avoid getting slammed for being terrible character writers - Flashforward, or Reset (w/o memories).

There's no other option. 17 episodes doesn't normally cover more than a month or so on this show. And I dont see how they're going to negate Suliet - kill off Jate, rebuild Skate and somehow come across as genuine, all in the span of 17 episodes. Not without one of the options mentioned above. And I gotta say; I dont enjoy the latter option all that much.

If Darlton somehow makes Kate into an actual part of Skate again in S6.. well; I'll be somewhat shocked. And if they want to do it without having a great deal of people dangling from their throats.. they better get cracking and sharpening those pencils.. because the abysmal glances and Kate-faces just doesn't cut it with me anymore. If they can't make her atleast somewhat interested in Sawyer without having Jack hovering in the background.. dont bother at all.


But, they did say there will be Skate vs Jate in S6, and Kate will choose. So how can we claim Skate will be difficult and untasteful, when they already said they are planning to have (some) of it?


The same writers that promised scientific explanations for all the mysteries. The same writers that blamed their faux-paus on various actors and actresses. The same writers that have been smiling, nodding and running from the more hands-on fan-questions and demands for years on end.. yeah, I trust them a great deal to deliver Skate vs. Jate in the last season.

/sarcasm over.

My money is on the choice being made for Kate - by one of the guys getting bumped off. Most likely right infront of her, so the last scenes of that couple will forever haunt the remaining ship. We wouldn't want to take a stand, would we Darlton? Nooo, Siree. We sure wouldnt.



Do I come across as bitter? Yeah, I kinda do. And I kinda am. Skate was/is one of the greatest stories of the show. And Darlton fumbled the ball at every turn since "I Do". I dont ask for much. Just a coherent, enjoyable and genuine story. I want it to feel like the characters remain themselves throughout these plotlines. I dont want any easy-bake stuff or quick fixes. And I want the characters I know and love to react in a genuine manner to what they experience.

And I dont think they're gonna be able to pull that off in 17 episodes. If we had two seasons left, sure thing. But not one.

[luminous]

i don't mean YOU, i mean people here in general :shifty:

i really wonder if we're on skate's thread or moved in suliet's fairytale ;)

Just because our opinion differs from yours, Lyly, doesn't mean we're any less skaters than you are. I have respected yours and everyone else's opinions all along, and I would appreciate the same kind of respect, without side comments. I'm not here to bully anyone, I'm here to give my opinion. I'm entitled to it just as much as you are, and I get the feeling that whatever we say, if it isn't according to the 'skate will be together for sure' theory, is either pro-jate or pro-suliet. It's not. We're skaters just like you are, we just have a different perspective. Thankfully, we have this place to voice our opinions, and this particular skate forum used to be known for being an 'adult' place to discuss skate issues. I hope that doesn't change now just because our opinion is less instantaneously romantic than that of most people.





Now, onto the actual post:



Oh, and I really understand people being negative about Skate future. Don´t worry, we´d never think you are not one of us for having trouble keeping faith! It´s just that Darlton love to give us heart attacks... Cruel, cruel people. But, they did say there will be Skate vs Jate in S6, and Kate will choose. So how can we claim Skate will be difficult and untasteful, when they already said they are planning to have (some) of it?

While I agree with a big part of what you're saying (especially regarding their ability to do ANYTHING with the ships, as we've seen) I have to say I'm not having ANY trouble keeping the faith I have in skate. My opinon is that character-wise, it shouldn't happen, unless there's a time passage. Period. I'm the kind of fan who puts characters ahead of ships, and for the sake of Sawyer's development, I think immediate skate would be a joke. That's just what I think.



And trust me, Skate CAN be untasteful. I still cringe every time I think about the tent sex in season 3 (or was it 4? Memory lapse here). It would have been such a nice scene with the right motivation. *sigh*





The other idea I've read and also thought of too is Juliet appearing to Sawyer to give him a kick in the pants in regards to Kate. I can hear her saying to him that she doesn't want to have died in vain, she knew his heart is with Kate and to see him throw that away after her sacrifice for him and others would not sit well.

I'd really like that. :) That would give us Sulieteers some closure, and us Skaters the possibility of guilt free, uncomplicated skate.

[jessica1984]

That's the crux of the problem, really.

I dont know how some people really want Sawyer to be the one that steps up at this point. Throughout every single scene (more or less) that Skate has shared since the beginning, Sawyer has been the giver - and rarely the receiver. I understand that the writers were trying to go for ambiguity and mysteries and all the rest of that s..t, but what they really did was to have Kate step on Sawyer repeatedly throughout the course of this series.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a Sawyer fan first, and my title as Skater comes in at second place. And when I step away from the hopes and glances and banter .. I dont really feel all that happy with Kate's character anymore. I personally believe that alot of the Skate in S5 was the writers handing out smoke and mirrors. We basically got nothing; and yes, that includes WHH as well. Every single thing we've gotten has been either negated or pissed away on mindless triangle-drama and tensionbuilding. The only real thing in Skate is that Sawyer loves Kate on some primal level - and that goes a long long way. Unfortunately I dont see the writers turning the Jate sob-story around at this point.

They seperate Skate, then build up Jate. Then they "re-build" Jate, and gives Sawyer 3 years of happiness with another woman. They then keep up the Jate, and (possibly) kill off Juliet in (arguably) the most brutal manner ever administered on this show. We get to see just how much Juliet's death affected Sawyer, in great detail (whether one might want to or not) - and right down to the last second of dropping that bomb - Jate was smeared all over the screen.

To me all this doesnt add up to a long-running Skate plotline in S6. And definitely not the romantic sort. The writers have two choices with Skate at this time if they want to avoid getting slammed for being terrible character writers - Flashforward, or Reset (w/o memories).

There's no other option. 17 episodes doesn't normally cover more than a month or so on this show. And I dont see how they're going to negate Suliet - kill off Jate, rebuild Skate and somehow come across as genuine, all in the span of 17 episodes. Not without one of the options mentioned above. And I gotta say; I dont enjoy the latter option all that much.

If Darlton somehow makes Kate into an actual part of Skate again in S6.. well; I'll be somewhat shocked. And if they want to do it without having a great deal of people dangling from their throats.. they better get cracking and sharpening those pencils.. because the abysmal glances and Kate-faces just doesn't cut it with me anymore. If they can't make her atleast somewhat interested in Sawyer without having Jack hovering in the background.. dont bother at all.


The same writers that promised scientific explanations for all the mysteries. The same writers that blamed their faux-paus on various actors and actresses. The same writers that have been smiling, nodding and running from the more hands-on fan-questions and demands for years on end.. yeah, I trust them a great deal to deliver Skate vs. Jate in the last season.

/sarcasm over.

My money is on the choice being made for Kate - by one of the guys getting bumped off. Most likely right infront of her, so the last scenes of that couple will forever haunt the remaining ship. We wouldn't want to take a stand, would we Darlton? Nooo, Siree. We sure wouldnt.



Do I come across as bitter? Yeah, I kinda do. And I kinda am. Skate was/is one of the greatest stories of the show. And Darlton fumbled the ball at every turn since "I Do". I dont ask for much. Just a coherent, enjoyable and genuine story. I want it to feel like the characters remain themselves throughout these plotlines. I dont want any easy-bake stuff or quick fixes. And I want the characters I know and love to react in a genuine manner to what they experience.

And I dont think they're gonna be able to pull that off in 17 episodes. If we had two seasons left, sure thing. But not one.

ITA. I have nothing to add.:giggle:

I want Skate, I really do, but too much has happened for me to still really look at where things are and feel good about the chances. I still don't know where Kate's heart is, Sawyer may be headed back into a dark place next year, Jack is all puppy dog in love with Kate right now, there are 468269 stories they still have to explain about the island and Claire and the monster and Ben/Widmore and all that, that I don't see where an epic, beautiful Skate love story fits in, I really don't.

The thrill and the excitment I used to ship Skate with are gone. I feel almost indifferent right now.

[Matarreyes]

Here i go again: proudly bringing peace and concordia to the Skate
Forum since... Errr... May 2009?

For the clarity sale, I've come up with this short and clear definition of one's current Skateness State:
SS 4: likes Skate and believes they are clearly OTP
SS 3: likes Skate and believes it has reasonable chances to be tastefully rebuild in the next season
SS 2: likes Skate but believes the chances of satisfying rebuild are slim
SS 1: used to adore Skate but after everything the authors did with the characters, nothing they may show me will make it credible or
desirable again (I kindly ask all fellow posters to respect and not flame this option)

Now me, I am a 3 My question is to the people who are disappointed: are you mostly in the group 1? I kinda hope for a
2, because I'd be sad to learn you really gave up hope or stopped caring.

[Katie27]

I'm a 3.

[jessica1984]

Here i go again: proudly bringing peace and concordia to the Skate
Forum since... Errr... May 2009?

For the clarity sale, I've come up with this short and clear definition of one's current Skateness State:
SS 4: likes Skate and believes they are clearly OTP
SS 3: likes Skate and believes it has reasonable chances to be tastefully rebuild in the next season
SS 2: likes Skate but believes the chances of satisfying rebuild are slim
SS 1: used to adore Skate but after everything the authors did with the characters, nothing they may show me will make it credible or
desirable again (I kindly ask all fellow posters to respect and not flame this option)

Now me, I am a 3 My question is to the people who are disappointed: are you mostly in the group 1? I kinda hope for a
2, because I'd be sad to learn you really gave up hope or stopped caring.

This is brilliant. :giggle: Kind of like a "Where Are You on the Skate Optimism Meter?":D

I am kinda in between 1 and 2. I haven't stopped caring. I haven't washed my hands of Skate. But I am finding it more and more diffucult to find the silver linings here or any glimpses that the Skate I used to love is still capable of coming back. It's all too complicated, too serious now, that the element of fun and playfulness is nowhere to be seen anymore.

I don't know if my problems lie strictly with the triangle. That's a big, big part of it, but also I have found that the writing for Skate has not been what it should be and even Josh and Evi don't seem to have that spark anymore. They act like old friends, like nothing happened between them 3 years ago. The scene where Kate told him about Clementine, I think, should have been more emotional. That was a huge thing between them supposedly, according to TPTB. I wished there was more to it than a 3 minute scene over an unconsious 10 year old Ben. :rolleyes:

Maybe it's me being too hard and too nitpicky, but I have been on a Skate downward spiral since Catch 22 and the "jealousy sex." I have found little to be happy about and even less to look forward to. Maybe come next season the writers will make a fool out of me, but until then I can't help but feel this way.

[tv-fan189]

The scene where Kate told him about Clementine, I think, should have been more emotional. That was a huge thing between them supposedly, according to TPTB. I wished there was more to it than a 3 minute scene over an unconsious 10 year old Ben. .

I agree. I have a problem with this scene either. I am not sure why Skaters love this scene, I hate it. It was so impersonal as if she was just passing off the information to an old time friend. Why didn't TPTB wait for a more emotional moment? Everything about the deliver of Skate this season was horrible and I hated it.

personally believe that alot of the Skate in S5 was the writers handing out smoke and mirrors. We basically got nothing; and yes, that includes WHH as well. Every single thing we've gotten has been either negated or pissed away on mindless triangle-drama and tensionbuilding.
I agree with this. When it comes down to it, we as Skaters were given nothing this season, and we were given nothing in season 4 as well. Darlton pissed all over an amazing story, for the sake of an ugly triangle and made matters worse by introducing Suliet. Realistically, how many months is season 6 in the story? I am just not sure they can pull this off

Do I come across as bitter? Yeah, I kinda do. And I kinda am. Skate was/is one of the greatest stories of the show. And Darlton fumbled the ball at every turn since "I Do".
Again I agree. Darlton made a big mistake with the triangle after I do, it got messy and they definitely fumbled the ball. Its possible that they gave Sawyer a great deal of grief over Juliet, so that Sawyer fans wouldn’t feel pissed with Jate rebuilding in season 6 because he wouldn’t love Kate anymore at that point so he wouldn’t be lovesick. I have no idea what to think right now. My opinion changes so many times when I think about this lol.

[Katie27]

I agree. I have a problem with this scene either. I am not sure why Skaters love this scene, I hate it. It was so impersonal as if she was just passing off the information to an old time friend. Why didn't TPTB wait for a more emotional moment? Everything about the deliver of Skate this season was horrible and I hated it.

I liked it. I thought it was a huge step for Sawyer asking about his daughter. He could have just stayed quiet, and I feel that the old Sawyer would have. It could have been a bit better I guess, but I think it was supposed to be sort of awkward. They couldn't have a big romantic moment because first off Juliet...secondly Ben was there...and thirdly they were then interrupted promptly by the Others. It wasn't like they could have gone into a in depth emotional conversation right then. I'm not saying that it was done perfectly because I might have written it a bit differently, but I have no idea how I would have changed it.


I agree with this. When it comes down to it, we as Skaters were given nothing this season, and we were given nothing in season 4 as well. Darlton pissed all over an amazing story, for the sake of an ugly triangle and made matters worse by introducing Suliet. Realistically, how many months is season 6 in the story? I am just not sure they can pull this off

Now I do agree that we were given very little Skate story line the last 2 seasons, but that only makes me more confident that the writers will be able to bring it back and finally give us a Skate season. BUT the 4th season did have the amazing sacrifice scene, which I feel is a huge thing for Skate. I really really do. There have still been some beautiful moments for Skate, and I think there will be more next season. How many weeks/months will be in S6? I don't know...I do think they could totally pull it off because they've been incorporating the wonderful flashfowards. It could be totally plausible that they will do another time jump. Meaning going back and forth between 2007 and maybe 2010 or something or 2012. I personally have no clue what is planned for season 6, but if Darlton is planning on bringing back Skate in any capacity, I think that they will be able to pull it off. They pulled off amazing Skateness in Season 3, so I'm sure they can do it again.

Again I agree. Darlton made a big mistake with the triangle after I do, it got messy and they definitely fumbled the ball. Its possible that they gave Sawyer a great deal of grief over Juliet, so that Sawyer fans wouldn’t feel pissed with Jate rebuilding in season 6 because he wouldn’t love Kate anymore at that point so he wouldn’t be lovesick. I have no idea what to think right now. My opinion changes so many times when I think about this lol.

I do agree with this as well. They shouldn't have kept the triangle going this long. I'm not sure what the logic behind it is, because it's only caused much hatred for Kate among fans. Kate is still one of my favorite characters, but she's been going down hill for me. She did climb back up slightly during WHH because we saw that she really does love Sawyer and she was keeping Aaron to fill the void blah blah blah, but they still need to show me more from her. I definitely think that the love triangle should have ended long ago, but this also goes back to my theory that the writers really do care what fans think. I think that they've wanted to make all the fans happy and so they had to have the Jate "happy family" so that there was something else other than Skate. I still have complete faith that they will be able to do something amazing with Skate next season. I keep thinking about that quote by Darlton that said "When you're laying naked on someone's chest, you've made your choice." So to me Kate made her choice 2 seasons ago...but Sawyer wasn't ready for a relationship at that moment and neither was Kate. They both had to realize that they couldn't make it work with other people, so that they could come back to be together...if you love someone let it go, and if they come back, it's meant to be.

[Vesna]

Please! :p

It's a skater place, Lyly, it still is! :D But I've read a lot of pro-Jate and pro-Suliet comments here lately. :eh:

The most ridicoulos thing in this thread, is yet somebody is trying to play victim when some Skaters are mentionig Suliet, but it's all ok when people are trashing Skate in their posts. That is stupid because is happening in a Skate thread. For the Suliet love there is the Suliet section. For the negative pessimistic Skaters, there is another thread as well.

[Atwa]

Here i go again: proudly bringing peace and concordia to the Skate
Forum since... Errr... May 2009?

For the clarity sale, I've come up with this short and clear definition of one's current Skateness State:
SS 4: likes Skate and believes they are clearly OTP
SS 3: likes Skate and believes it has reasonable chances to be tastefully rebuild in the next season
SS 2: likes Skate but believes the chances of satisfying rebuild are slim
SS 1: used to adore Skate but after everything the authors did with the characters, nothing they may show me will make it credible or
desirable again (I kindly ask all fellow posters to respect and not flame this option)

Now me, I am a 3 My question is to the people who are disappointed: are you mostly in the group 1? I kinda hope for a
2, because I'd be sad to learn you really gave up hope or stopped caring.

Nothing & all...:D I DO believe they're OTP (ss 4), but it doesn't have to mean they're really going to end up together (fate is a strange thing) and I DO think Skate has reasonable chances to be rebuild next season, but again, I'm afraid it won't be tastefully and/or satisfying for us (satisfying=Skate before last episode of the show). Complicated, huh? :giggle:

And I also agree with you - they shouldn't have kept the triangle going for so long, but IMO logic behind it is very clear - they do care about keeping fans. They cannot say "ok, it's season 3, we have 3 more to go, Sawyer loves Kate, she had chosen him over Jack and they'll live happily ever after. Jaters, eat yourself." Many of them would quit shipping and at the same time stop watching Lost... So they're trying to make everyone happy but you just can't do that. Nobody can. But you can also apply this on Skate(rs). Every time I think "if they wanted the closure of Skate, they wouldn't show us emotions and looks when they could easily cover it with Suliet", but then I remember that there's possibilty they just want to keep as many fans they can.

So, fate is a strange thing... sometimes it can easily be bought... but I won't lose faith in Skate. :D

[jasminectart]

The most ridicoulos thing in this thread, is yet somebody is trying to play victim when some Skaters are mentionig Suliet, but it's all ok when people are trashing Skate in their posts. That is stupid because is happening in a Skate thread. For the Suliet love there is the Suliet section. For the negative pessimistic Skaters, there is another thread as well.

ITA with you, Vesna, I don't think it's right it happens in a skater thread. :blank: JMO.

Btw, I'm a SS 4 Matarreyes. :D

[Lyly Ford]

Just because our opinion differs from yours, Lyly, doesn't mean we're any less skaters than you are. I have respected yours and everyone else's opinions all along, and I would appreciate the same kind of respect, without side comments. I'm not here to bully anyone, I'm here to give my opinion. I'm entitled to it just as much as you are, and I get the feeling that whatever we say, if it isn't according to the 'skate will be together for sure' theory, is either pro-jate or pro-suliet. It's not. We're skaters just like you are, we just have a different perspective. Thankfully, we have this place to voice our opinions, and this particular skate forum used to be known for being an 'adult' place to discuss skate issues. I hope that doesn't change now just because our opinion is less instantaneously romantic than that of most people.


Skaters are NOT sulieters i mean you can't be both it's just, i dunno but i'm not jater AND skater :blank:(thanks god for me)
so i don't know why you think i don't respect opinion
i said there is MONTHS before the show returns and i'm already tired to read people speaking of sawyer and juliet as the big romance and need closure
do they gave it to charlie and claire ? she was sad one episode and zou !
the only women who cared of their men were
penny, sun and kate as we saw severals time
and even jin didn't shown many interested about sun, he could have asked kate or hurley about sun but we didn't see a scene about it, so romance isn't LOST priority so i said don't expect BIG suliet moment next year not when it's the LAST season. kate will with ONE man and there is a lot of work to do for skate 'cause everybody know they're mean to be EXCEPT them lol and if jack could have say why jate broke up, well no more triangle next year (if we can still call it like that)

btw i'm SS4 and nothing will change my mind ^^

[luminous]

The most ridicoulos thing in this thread, is yet somebody is trying to play victim when some Skaters are mentionig Suliet, but it's all ok when people are trashing Skate in their posts. That is stupid because is happening in a Skate thread. For the Suliet love there is the Suliet section. For the negative pessimistic Skaters, there is another thread as well.
Nobody is trashing skate in their posts. We're giving constructive, well-thought opinions of what we think should happen. I'm not up to being categorized into pessimistic or optimistic skater. I'm a skater, period. I have any right to post in this thread as any of you do, as long as I'm not insulting anybody. And I'm not.

And if you or Lyly or anyone else has any issue with this or with me in particular for voicing my opinion, I would appreciate it if you sent me a private message and we could take it up from there. I have been nothing but polite with you, and I expect the same.

Here i go again: proudly bringing peace and concordia to the Skate
Forum since... Errr... May 2009?

For the clarity sale, I've come up with this short and clear definition of one's current Skateness State:
SS 4: likes Skate and believes they are clearly OTP
SS 3: likes Skate and believes it has reasonable chances to be tastefully rebuild in the next season
SS 2: likes Skate but believes the chances of satisfying rebuild are slim
SS 1: used to adore Skate but after everything the authors did with the characters, nothing they may show me will make it credible or
desirable again (I kindly ask all fellow posters to respect and not flame this option)

Now me, I am a 3 My question is to the people who are disappointed: are you mostly in the group 1? I kinda hope for a
2, because I'd be sad to learn you really gave up hope or stopped caring.
OMG, you're awesome. LOL. I think I'm definitely at SS2. I think that it would take one hell of a creative move for skate to be as satisfying for me as it used to. It's been said here, and I completely agree, that it has to come from Kate rather than from Sawyer. He's been there for years (ok, months for them, in regards to the first time on the island), and she's done nothing but to come back and forth about who she wants and who she loves. She needs to make a decision and to make a VERY clear one. If they leave us hanging like they have until now, with the 'this is skate, but then again it's jate' type of scene, it will be terrible for the characters and for the entire plot, IMO. And what makes it even more difficult to achieve, is that at the same time they need to honor Sawyer's relationship with Juliet. It lasted three years, they were together and loved each other, and it's fairly obvious from season 5 that the said relationship changed him a lot. I think that change in Sawyer's character needs to be addressed and dealt with, even in regards to the way he's going to relate to Kate now. If he's going to keep the maturity he had with Juliet or if he's going back to being who he started the series as. :D

[Lyly Ford]

some people need to rewatch WHH when they can't see clearly where kate's heart is...i'm still amazed by that :blank:
and the look at the end of s5 it remind me another look in s2 and we'll all know what happened next ;)

[Debbie]

OMG, you're awesome. LOL. I think I'm definitely at SS2. I think that it would take one hell of a creative move for skate to be as satisfying for me as it used to. It's been said here, and I completely agree, that it has to come from Kate rather than from Sawyer. He's been there for years (ok, months for them, in regards to the first time on the island), and she's done nothing but to come back and forth about who she wants and who she loves. She needs to make a decision and to make a VERY clear one. If they leave us hanging like they have until now, with the 'this is skate, but then again it's jate' type of scene, it will be terrible for the characters and for the entire plot, IMO. And what makes it even more difficult to achieve, is that at the same time they need to honor Sawyer's relationship with Juliet. It lasted three years, they were together and loved each other, and it's fairly obvious from season 5 that the said relationship changed him a lot. I think that change in Sawyer's character needs to be addressed and dealt with, even in regards to the way he's going to relate to Kate now. If he's going to keep the maturity he had with Juliet or if he's going back to being who he started the series as. :D

Even though I'm between a 3 and 2, I do agree with alot of what you've said here. Escpeicaqlly the points about Kate, I think that would pretty much settle it for me, at we seen in the incident, Sawyer clearly still has Kate in his heart. I just think that Kate hasn't given me anough to actually belive this, I do believe she does/did love him, It just wasn't 100% clear for everyone to see.

With Sawyers charcter, it's harder. He grew to become the standout character in the show, they obviously were pishing for this. So for them to revert him back to the old Sawyer seems a waste? I need to writers to really turn this whole situation round, I feel I'll begin to loose faith otherwise.

[Katie27]

and the look at the end of s5 it remind me another look in s2 and we'll all know what happened next ;)

Yes. I like this. I can't remember where I said it or when, but I remember posting something about how the seasons have looped...meaning:
s1=s4
s2=s5
and
s3 will = s6

In season 1 and 4 we learned about the characters. S1 was about introducing them and s4 was about the oceanic 6's life off the island. And also in S1 Kate was leaning more toward Jack romantically aside from the hot Skate scene and following Sawyer into the jungle for a game of I Never. S4 Kate was also leaning more toward Jack, because like it or not being engaged is pretty major. So she was leaning more toward Jack, aside from the hot scenes in Eggtown (which unfortunately lead to her then leaving Sawyer in bed) and the amazing sacrifice that caused the Jengagement to fall apart.

Season 2, she really didn't show a true decision between either of them. She was flirty bantery with both of them. She stayed up all night looking after Sawyer when he was shot. She stayed up all night with Jack looking for Michael. She played poker with Sawyer, but then Jack joined. She had a zombie kiss with Jack. Season 5 she was pretty pissed at Jack, but then suddenly she wasn't and she was almost friendly toward him. Neither couple had a ton of romance this season. And she had zombie sex with Jack.

Season 3 brought us the wonderful cages. Kate watching Sawyer be beat up and broken down, she saw a different side to him. The "giving up" side. When he wasn't fighting back during EMFH she said that it scared her more than anything. Unfortunately she still doesn't know why he just gave up, but we all know that he did it so that they wouldn't touch Kate. They had their moments of love. They had their moments of anger. But eventually at the end of the season, at least a part of Kate wanted to be pregnant with Sawyer's baby. And I highly doubt that Kate would be pregnant with Sawyer's baby and then go. "OH, see ya Sawyer, I want Jack." Sure there were moments where Kate wasn't at her finest. The jealousy sex in Catch-22 definitely isn't something that we Skaters should be proud of, no matter how hot it was. But Season 3 brought very little Jateness. Sure she went back to get Jack, but I think she would have gone back if it had been anyone. If Locke had been stuck with the Others, Kate would have been one of the first to sign up to get him. That's just who she is. She has gone on every trek into the jungle that she could possibly go on. (Hunting Party anyone?) But she and Jack really had no romantic scenes during season 3. Except her "I am so sorry" when she came back to get him and realized that he had seen her and Sawyer on the screen. The reason she was apologizing is because she knows where her heart lies, and Juliet told her that she broke his heart, and she didn't want to break his heart.

So if the pattern is correct, Kate and Sawyer will definitely find their love again and Kate will be saying "I'm so sorry." to Jack, telling him that her heart has always been with Sawyer.

[lechenklein]

Here i go again: proudly bringing peace and concordia to the Skate
Forum since... Errr... May 2009?

For the clarity sale, I've come up with this short and clear definition of one's current Skateness State:
SS 4: likes Skate and believes they are clearly OTP
SS 3: likes Skate and believes it has reasonable chances to be tastefully rebuild in the next season
SS 2: likes Skate but believes the chances of satisfying rebuild are slim
SS 1: used to adore Skate but after everything the authors did with the characters, nothing they may show me will make it credible or
desirable again (I kindly ask all fellow posters to respect and not flame this option)

Now me, I am a 3 My question is to the people who are disappointed: are you mostly in the group 1? I kinda hope for a
2, because I'd be sad to learn you really gave up hope or stopped caring.

Wow! Brilliant:w00t::giggle: I'm SS4!

I like the "new" Sawyer but I was totally in love with the "old" Sawyer! I want him back...and I think there might be a chance that we'll get him back. Right now he's broken but he's angry, too, don't you think? I think in season 6 we'll see him being pissed at Jack 'cause he maybe blames him for Juliet's death (I do,too!). That's what we've seen in season 1...a broken man with tons of anger inside.
And Kate will be there for him. Maybe Sawyer will push her away at the beginning I don't know but eventually he'll let her in.

I still have faith. I'll always have faith when it comes to skate 'cause they're just meant to be.:heart:

[jasminectart]

And what makes it even more difficult to achieve, is that at the same time they need to honor Sawyer's relationship with Juliet. It lasted three years, they were together and loved each other, and it's fairly obvious from season 5 that the said relationship changed him a lot.

I don't know why you and some other persons still think S/J relationship lasted 3 years IF Sawyer told Horace after Kate left he spent nights thinking he had lost his chance with her (and I don't think in that time Juliet was already with him as a couple) AND Juliet told James when they broke up that what they had 'was so little'. :shrug:

[Katie27]

I don't know why you and some other persons still think S/J relationship lasted 3 years IF Sawyer told Horace after Kate left he spent nights thinking he had lost his chance with her (and I don't think in that time Juliet was already with him as a couple) AND Juliet told James when they broke up that what they had 'was so little'. :shrug:

Yeah...I don't get people saying that Jate lasted 3 years and Suliet has been together together for 3 years.
Obviously Sawyer and Juliet spent 3 years getting to know each other and "having each others backs" but I don't think that they were actually together for 3 years. As you said Sawyer spent a long time laying in bed awake thinking about Kate. I would hope he wouldn't be sleeping with Juliet and then spending his nights thinking about Kate. I don't know. I kinda hope that they mention how long Sawyer and Juliet's relationship lasted...as well as Jate.
Jack and Kate were together for maybe a few months. Because if you look at Aaron's age. Jack and Kate weren't together at all till after her trial. And after her trial when Kate got home, she went to wake up Aaron, and he looked maybe 2 and a half-ish. And then he looked approximately the same age when Kate and Jack were engaged. And then Kate said "I've spent 3 years trying to get over all the horrible things that happened that day." so we know it's only been 3 years total. So I think that Jack and Kate were together 6 months at max.

[luminous]

I don't know why you and some other persons still think S/J relationship lasted 3 years IF Sawyer told Horace after Kate left he spent nights thinking he had lost his chance with her (and I don't think in that time Juliet was already with him as a couple) AND Juliet told James when they broke up that what they had 'was so little'. :shrug:
Again with the over-analyzing. Make it two years if you want. Make it one. I doubt it was only three months, as it was with Kate. But still, that's not the point. The point is to know that the Suliet relationship wasn't an immediate one, it was built and lasting, and it changed them both. That's undeniable. Sawyer wouldn't have done all he did to 'have her back' and leave with her if it 'was so little', and especially if he was still in the same point, maturity-wise, as he was three years before.

Look, I'm not asking you to like Suliet. I'm asking you to acknowledge it. It's there for everyone to see, and just because we haven't been fighting over it for 4+ years, it doesn't mean it's bullcrap. I think that it represented, at the very least, a big change for both Sawyer and Juliet as characters, and that that same change should be recognized and worked upon by the writers.

I honestly don't get how some skaters so fiercely refuse to recognize Suliet as a ship, when it's probably what will give us what we wanted for so long: a grown up Sawyer, ready to be with Kate, if she makes an effort in that direction.

[tita3]

I honestly don't get how some skaters so fiercely refuse to recognize Suliet as a ship, when it's probably what will give us what we wanted for so long: a grown up Sawyer, ready to be with Kate, if she makes an effort in that direction.

You are so right!!!!:w00t:
But you already know that I completly agree with you! You just expressed it better than I would...
I just really hope that Kate makes an effort as you said...:please:
P.S - BTW, I'm tita_undomiel from livejournal, Lu!:giggle:

[Matarreyes]

Suliet as a ship... ...it's probably what will give us what we wanted for so long: a grown up Sawyer, ready to be with Kate, if she makes an effort in that direction.
Brilliant observation. I, for once, liked Suliet. The reason I don´t very much like it now is that the writers made it clear that Kate is still Sawyer´s number one (in spite of Sawyer´s best efforts to convince himself of the opposite). And since I want the best for him, here I go rooting for Skate all the way. But I certainly will need to see their reunion initiated by Kate, otherwise I´ll be pissed. Thing is, this is exactly what I see coming, and the heartbreak over loss of Juliet only makes me more sure of this.

To all people tired of the triangle and bashing the writer´s unwillingness to resolve the situation. I don´t think they are dragging the situation just for the audience sake. Think of it: Lost is all about destiny. Destiny is to be found in season 6, and this has been clear a long time ago. Now since Kate´s destiny seems to be to stop running (note how she tried to settle, but run again after she lost Aaron), her running between men can´t be resolved until time comes. We just have to wait patiently.

[Luanne]

If you don't want to read a pro Kate, anti Jate/Suliet post, then there is nothing to see here.

If I was facing the possiblity of losing the man I supposedly am in love with, I would look at him and not the man I bascially didn't want nothing to do with just a couple days earlier. I mean, she just did everything but come out and tell Jack to go to hell. Now she's looking at him with tears in her eyes because she may be about to lose him.


So looks now define a ship. I don't get the point here. Stop taking everything so literal. Jack was wrong. Kate did like the old Jack. That's the Jack she loves and he just called most of their relationship misery. People need to get over that what they have is important and they don't need to behave like they are in 5th grade and Kate needs to have both island boyfriends in front of her and break up with one of them so the other see's it. I really can't understand why people don't get that she would be upset that about Jack erasing everything, and stop defining Kate as only about Jack. Its irritating and against canon.

And yeah, I know Sawyer looked at Juliet, but I also know without a doubt loves Kate more. He has proven that to me all series long and that look to her during the Rose/Bernard scene just amplified it even more. I can't say the same for Kate. I don't know if she loves Sawyer more. Everytime we start thinking that yes, Sawyer is her choice and the man she loves, something Jatey happens that totally almost negates it. We get WHH, then we get Kate all sad and crying over Jack wanting to erase their past.

Sorry, but side eye look at Kate means nothing when you consider his behaviour towards Kate since she got back. That's nice that Sawyer looked at Kate during Benards's cheesy speech, but he seemed more concerned over his oj then if Kate, the one he loves, dies because a bomb was about to go off. What Sawyer did before she left, is irrelevant right now to the story. If you watch WHH and you still don't know if Kate loves Sawyer, I feel for your life and her being upset being Jack wants to go back to a life where he isn't a screw up doesn't negate a thing to do with Skate.

I still need a lot more from Kate than I do Sawyer. I don't think that will ever change.

If you still need this going into the last season, I would just give up on this dream. She won't ever doing anything that will be enough.

Suliet beat Skate and Jate in almost every poll since the finale. How about that?

Much respect and such but are you kidding? Now we are using internet polls to say, see Suliet smokes the original ships of Jate and Skate. Good lawd, that is so ridiculous. If you talk about the last one from abc.com and if I were a Suliet fan no way would I be pointing out that poll where abc publically said it was hacked. But you know, I'm sure the final results are totally accurate, were not fudged and yeah the world is Suliet's oyster. So internet polls mean jack because its the same people voting over and over in hopes that Damon changes his story because some shippers on the interweb clicked their fingers numb.






I dont know how some people really want Sawyer to be the one that steps up at this point.

Why not. I sure as hell do. And sorry, but in no way is Skate on sided with poor Sawyer always picking up the slack. Good grief. If it weren't for Kate when they were captured in season 3, Sawyer would still be flirting and watching from afar.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a Sawyer fan first

Ah, I see now. Sawyer fan that thinks this is still Kate's ballgame. As far as I'm concerned Kate doesn't have to do a darn thing and yes Sawyer is the one that needs to step up. If he wants Kate. Kate doesn't have to prove a thing. Doesn't have to prove how loyal she was to her island fling. Doesn't have to prove how she did in fact love him. Kate has no balls in this. Sawyer does, metaphorically speaking, of course, because I think, literally, season 5, took those away. At least half the season they weren't there. You declared yourself as a Sawyer fan, well, I'm a Kate fan first and no way do I want her chasing after a guy that did nothing but confirm to her that she wasn't good enough for him. And at this point, I don't even know if I want Kate with him, especially after what he pulled in Follow The Leader. Funny how that works right, when most people are wringing their hands at the thought of, do I want Sawyer with Kate. At this point I'm in this to see how Kate's arc finishes. I would have said Sawyer's but I think they hacked up his character so well in season 5.

They seperate Skate, then build up Jate. Then they "re-build" Jate, and gives Sawyer 3 years of happiness with another woman. They then keep up the Jate, and (possibly) kill off Juliet in (arguably) the most brutal manner ever administered on this show. We get to see just how much Juliet's death affected Sawyer, in great detail (whether one might want to or not) - and right down to the last second of dropping that bomb - Jate was smeared all over the screen.

Build up Jate? Please, that ship could not have been treated worse if the writers tried. I'm just going to get right to season 4 and 5 Jate cause they all but ignored Jate since season 2. Zero development. The build up of Jate in season 4 consisted of Jack reminding Kate that she should be with Sawyer, that Sawyer loves her, Kate trying to make it work with Sawyer, Sawyer being an ass to Kate since The Brig, Sawyer walking away from Kate, twice. I saw Jate being build back into a friendship, on island. And no one will ever convince me that talking about nauseau is flirting. Off island, it took nearly 3 years for them to get their act together. In that time, Kate was the one that was keeping Skate alive, not Sawyer. This is not Jate being built up. This is Jate as an afterthought. Lets just get the two leads together. Again, the re built of Jate again centers on friendship. Helping Kate sort out the Aaron issue. Using someone for sex and then throwing them away like a dirty tissue, is not rebuilding. Suliet and Jate are perfect mirrors for each other and that is not an accident. So what if Sawyer moved on. Was he suppose to pine after Kate forever. We have a triangle, and this happens all the time, so I don't the bitterness. Boy is in love with girl, he loses her, tries to move on with another, but is still not over the first girl. Jesus, this is so cliche. I hate Suliet, what it did to Sawyer, hate that people are coming into the rival ship's forum and continually want people to admit this or acknowledge that, but of course Sawyer was shown to be affected by Juliet's death, so what.

I want it to feel like the characters remain themselves throughout these plotlines. I dont want any easy-bake stuff or quick fixes. And I want the characters I know and love to react in a genuine manner to what they experience.

Funny that you don't want easy bake stuff or quick fixes and want characters to act in a genuine way and yet you had no problem with Suliet. Its funny because that was Suliet. Sawyer was ooc from LaFleur on, Juliet did nothing but mother Sawyer and tell him what to do and when to it and how to do it up until LaFleur. After that, she become a pathetic whiny insecure housewife that cried over Kate. If her and Sawyer were so solid after 3 years, she wouldn't get into a jealous snit over a name. She wouldn't worry over Kate's mere presence. So the whole, Suliet is deeper and more solid then Skate doesn't wash. and Suliet was the easy bake stuff of this season.

That would give us Sulieteers some closure, and us Skaters the possibility of guilt free, uncomplicated skate.

Suliet and Sulieteers got closure. Suliet is deader then dead. Was over the minute Kate came back. Juliet called him off, called him out over and over again, over his feelings for Kate. Told him he wouldn't love her as much as he loved Kate. All true. Why make a mockery of her death by having her come back as a lame vision/ghost and tell Sawyer (again), hey, 'member that one time I told you we were over and you will love Kate and we weren't meant to be, yeah, well now that I'm deader then dead, I really mean it.


I think its hella funny that once again a frakkin look between Jack and Kate is being heralded as the greatest proof of Jate is IT in season 6. Last time I head that bs was in season 2. See, they loooooked at each other on the dock. Kate and Jack are so moving forward. *cough* I mean of course.


I still don't know where Kate's heart is,

That's kinda weird, I think there is ample evidence of that, but you continually get played cause of looks.

Sawyer may be headed back into a dark place next year,

Right, just like season 5 he was in a dark place.

The thrill and the excitment I used to ship Skate with are gone. I feel almost indifferent right now.

The thrill and excitment are gone, you are indifferent to it and really have been since I Do, 3 years ago, stop fronting. If people are indifferent, don't like Skate, they have no chance, Skate got nothing in 2 seasons, etc, yadda, yadda, and you continue to do nothing but talk about them, then I can only conclude you are masochistic.

[luminous]

You are so right!!!!:w00t:
But you already know that I completly agree with you! You just expressed it better than I would...
I just really hope that Kate makes an effort as you said...:please:
P.S - BTW, I'm tita_undomiel from livejournal, Lu!:giggle:
Hi babygirl! :D And yes, I'm really hoping so. :)


So looks now define a ship.
Look who's being literal now.

You took many of those sentences out of context, but I'll only reply to one, because honestly, I'm tired of beating a dead horse here.

Much respect and such but are you kidding? Now we are using internet polls to say, see Suliet smokes the original ships of Jate and Skate. Good lawd, that is so ridiculous. If you talk about the last one from abc.com and if I were a Suliet fan no way would I be pointing out that poll where abc publically said it was hacked. But you know, I'm sure the final results are totally accurate, were not fudged and yeah the world is Suliet's oyster. So internet polls mean jack because its the same people voting over and over in hopes that Damon changes his story because some shippers on the interweb clicked their fingers numb.
For the sake of truth, I never said it was better than Skate/Jate, I said it was a well loved ship. If you ask many people outside of the jate/skate bubble, they'll tell you Suliet was a good storyline. And honestly, I agree. That's the context in which that quote was used, it wasn't there to justify the fact that a ship is better than the other.

To all people tired of the triangle and bashing the writer´s unwillingness to resolve the situation. I don´t think they are dragging the situation just for the audience sake. Think of it: Lost is all about destiny. Destiny is to be found in season 6, and this has been clear a long time ago. Now since Kate´s destiny seems to be to stop running (note how she tried to settle, but run again after she lost Aaron), her running between men can´t be resolved until time comes. We just have to wait patiently.
I agree with you here. And there's also another point to make, the timeline. What happened, for us, in 4 years, happened in 4 months on the island. I think that if we consider that timeline, the triangle isn't being dragged at all... it's taking a pretty natural course and speed. :D Of course, the three years are a separate issue, but I still think it happened at the pace it should happen. :)

[Matarreyes]

Luanne, you have to realize that by writing angry posts you minimize your chances of scoring your point :). Let´s all be friends, please! I can´t stand seeing Skaters go against each other.

If we break down both Sawyer and Kate grieving over their separation, we get this. Sawyer was upset with his loss of Kate for 8 initial episodes (he still mentiones this in LaFleur), and he has expressed it more or less clearly at least 4 times:
- when he tongue slipped and said he jumped because he wanted "her" to have a chance instead of "them"
- when Locke asked if he wanted her back and he shut himself out and said it didn´t matter what he wanted
- when he confessed to Juliet he saw Kate in the jungle
- when he confessed to Horace he wasn´t sure he´d ever stop thinking about her

From Kate, we got a...
- 2 strange conversations with Jack on the boat and aat the airport about the horrible things happened the day they left. Both times, it´s very easy to interpret she was speaking of the frighter explosion, and not Sawyer at all.
- WHH is the only moment where we can conclude the separation affected her, but she comes off as angry at Sawyer for selfishly leaving her. This supposedly explains her incredibly cold dismissal of all leftbehinders (and him) after Locke´s plea. Now why do we all forget SHE left him in Dharmaville, after sleeping-together-but-not-quite (and let´s face it, it is a below the belt blow to a guy like him), and when they finally reunited near the helicopter made a beeline to Jack right in front of Sawyer.

Now, she has every right to be with whom she wants, but she doesn´t have any right to feel "abandoned" by Sawyer. Sorry folks, it was the other way around. I never disliked Kate more then during the "how long can we play house" scene. And I need her to come forward and commit to the guy to be happy with Skate again.

[jasminectart]

Yeah...I don't get people saying that Jate lasted 3 years and Suliet has been together together for 3 years.
Obviously Sawyer and Juliet spent 3 years getting to know each other and "having each others backs" but I don't think that they were actually together for 3 years. As you said Sawyer spent a long time laying in bed awake thinking about Kate. I would hope he wouldn't be sleeping with Juliet and then spending his nights thinking about Kate. I don't know. I kinda hope that they mention how long Sawyer and Juliet's relationship lasted...as well as Jate.
Jack and Kate were together for maybe a few months. Because if you look at Aaron's age. Jack and Kate weren't together at all till after her trial. And after her trial when Kate got home, she went to wake up Aaron, and he looked maybe 2 and a half-ish. And then he looked approximately the same age when Kate and Jack were engaged. And then Kate said "I've spent 3 years trying to get over all the horrible things that happened that day." so we know it's only been 3 years total. So I think that Jack and Kate were together 6 months at max.

I'd like to know the times too, it'd be good for making things clear.

I think Jack and Kate were together like for 4-5 months, never more, the Aaron after the trial was the same one in SNHB, so he hadn't grow up so much in that time. And Kate's trial was a long time after they left the island.

Again with the over-analyzing. Make it two years if you want. Make it one. I doubt it was only three months, as it was with Kate. But still, that's not the point. The point is to know that the Suliet relationship wasn't an immediate one, it was built and lasting, and it changed them both. That's undeniable. Sawyer wouldn't have done all he did to 'have her back' and leave with her if it 'was so little', and especially if he was still in the same point, maturity-wise, as he was three years before.

Look, I'm not asking you to like Suliet. I'm asking you to acknowledge it. It's there for everyone to see, and just because we haven't been fighting over it for 4+ years, it doesn't mean it's bullcrap. I think that it represented, at the very least, a big change for both Sawyer and Juliet as characters, and that that same change should be recognized and worked upon by the writers.

I honestly don't get how some skaters so fiercely refuse to recognize Suliet as a ship, when it's probably what will give us what we wanted for so long: a grown up Sawyer, ready to be with Kate, if she makes an effort in that direction.

It wasn't over-analyzing, just facts, and I'm not denying they were a couple and I know it was built, even if nobody saw it.

I just don't agree with people assuming they were together for 3 years, that's all. And I don't like either Suliet seems to be more important just because maybe they were together for more than 3 months, that was the time Kate and Sawyer were 'together'. And I don't like because I've studied a lot of issues about relationships and time has never been something that can define the 'quantity' of love or the intensity of the relationship. That's all.

And I know it was something good for Sawyer, just like Aaron was for Kate.

Peace! :whiteflag:

Build up Jate? Please, that ship could not have been treated worse if the writers tried. I'm just going to get right to season 4 and 5 Jate cause they all but ignored Jate since season 2. Zero development. The build up of Jate in season 4 consisted of Jack reminding Kate that she should be with Sawyer, that Sawyer loves her, Kate trying to make it work with Sawyer, Sawyer being an ass to Kate since The Brig, Sawyer walking away from Kate, twice. I saw Jate being build back into a friendship, on island. And no one will ever convince me that talking about nauseau is flirting. Off island, it took nearly 3 years for them to get their act together. In that time, Kate was the one that was keeping Skate alive, not Sawyer. This is not Jate being built up. This is Jate as an afterthought. Lets just get the two leads together. Again, the re built of Jate again centers on friendship. Helping Kate sort out the Aaron issue. Using someone for sex and then throwing them away like a dirty tissue, is not rebuilding. Suliet and Jate are perfect mirrors for each other and that is not an accident. So what if Sawyer moved on. Was he suppose to pine after Kate forever. We have a triangle, and this happens all the time, so I don't the bitterness. Boy is in love with girl, he loses her, tries to move on with another, but is still not over the first girl. Jesus, this is so cliche.

Funny that you don't want easy bake stuff or quick fixes and want characters to act in a genuine way and yet you had no problem with Suliet. Its funny because that was Suliet. Sawyer was ooc from LaFleur on, Juliet did nothing but mother Sawyer and tell him what to do and when to it and how to do it up until LaFleur. After that, she become a pathetic whiny insecure housewife that cried over Kate. If her and Sawyer were so solid after 3 years, she wouldn't get into a jealous snit over a name. She wouldn't worry over Kate's mere presence. So the whole, Suliet is deeper and more solid then Skate doesn't wash. and Suliet was the easy bake stuff of this season.

Suliet and Sulieteers got closure. Suliet is deader then dead. Was over the minute Kate came back. Juliet called him off, called him out over and over again, over his feelings for Kate. Told him he wouldn't love her as much as he loved Kate. All true. Why make a mockery of her death by having her come back as a lame vision/ghost and tell Sawyer (again), hey, 'member that one time I told you we were over and you will love Kate and we weren't meant to be, yeah, well now that I'm deader then dead, I really mean it.

ITA with you, Luanne.

I think its hella funny that once again a frakkin look between Jack and Kate is being heralded as the greatest proof of Jate is IT in season 6. Last time I head that bs was in season 2. See, they loooooked at each other on the dock. Kate and Jack are so moving forward. *cough* I mean of course.

:rotflol: They looked at each other because they loved so much!!! :crackup: And we all know what happened after that. :rolleyes: Kate, can you please give more of THOSE lookings to Jack??? :giggle:

[Luanne]

Luanne, you have to realize that by writing angry posts you minimize your chances of scoring your point :). Let´s all be friends, please! I can´t stand seeing Skaters go against each other.

If we break down both Sawyer and Kate grieving over their separation, we get this. Sawyer was upset with his loss of Kate for 8 initial episodes (he still mentiones this in LaFleur), and he has expressed it more or less clearly at least 4 times:
- when he tongue slipped and said he jumped because he wanted "her" to have a chance instead of "them"
- when Locke asked if he wanted her back and he shut himself out and said it didn´t matter what he wanted
- when he confessed to Juliet he saw Kate in the jungle
- when he confessed to Horace he wasn´t sure he´d ever stop thinking about her

From Kate, we got a...
- 2 strange conversations with Jack on the boat and aat the airport about the horrible things happened the day they left. Both times, it´s very easy to interpret she was speaking of the frighter explosion, and not Sawyer at all.
- WHH is the only moment where we can conclude the separation affected her, but she comes off as angry at Sawyer for selfishly leaving her. This supposedly explains her incredibly cold dismissal of all leftbehinders (and him) after Locke´s plea. Now why do we all forget SHE left him in Dharmaville, after sleeping-together-but-not-quite (and let´s face it, it is a below the belt blow to a guy like him), and when they finally reunited near the helicopter made a beeline to Jack right in front of Sawyer.

Now, she has every right to be with whom she wants, but she doesn´t have any right to feel "abandoned" by Sawyer. Sorry folks, it was the other way around. I never disliked Kate more then during the "how long can we play house" scene. And I need her to come forward and commit to the guy to be happy with Skate again.

Angry posts about a fictional story, please Matarreyes, the commentary on my supposed mood is unnecessary. For the first time since the finale week I read this thread and you have people openly saying, they are bitter, disenchanted with Skate, some old nonsense about Kate, they are disillusioned, Skate has no hope, Sawyer is basically a glittery prince that doesn't need to work at this Skate thing, then the Suliet comments, all being said in a Skate section. Then I post my opinion, not caring about scoring points btw, and I post it in a way that gets my point across in the most compact way I can think of. You are misreading that as angry.

This is the Skate forum and I'm not fighting with fellow Skaters, but I am disagreeing with fellow Skaters opinions and I don't do it that often anymore here cause I don't want to wade through Suliet comments. Its like me going into the Jate section and trying to get those kids to acknowledge some of the great things I think about Skate and to agree with me. Its counterproductive and has no point.

This is me not agreeing you with, not fighting. Sawyer pretty much was done with Kate after TLP. He was all flirty with Juliet on the dock. His conversation with Horace was not one of, I miss my bb, but yeah I loved this girl once, but got over it and hell, I don't even remember her face. I think she might have had freckles. He was giving hope to Horace. I don't think he layed awake 3 years later still thinking about Kate.

Kate has a right to feel whatever she feels and yes she, imo, has every right to feel abandoned by Sawyer. He has done it numerous times before his heroic jump. Maybe WHH was the first time you got the impact of Sawyer leaving her but they showed it in season 4. Why are you so dismissive of Sawyer in post island Kate's life. I mean you think her tears in the airport or on the boat about the frieghter exploding. I would never have gotten that in a million years especially when Sawyer is the most obvious reason. And really in her conversation with Locke, it always suprises me that 3 years removed, Kate having moved on raising a child is suppose pack up and leave for an island because Locke says so. Locke gets more credit then he deserves in this fandom, imo. And plus 3 years later, Kate thinks Sawyer didn't want to be with her, and he confirms that for her in WHH.

Lastly, Sawyer is the one that needs to commit not Kate. Sorry, because given Sawyer's attitude towards Kate, why in the world would she put herself out there given Sawyer's WHH commentary

[jessica1984]

Luanne, you have to realize that by writing angry posts you minimize your chances of scoring your point :). Let´s all be friends, please! I can´t stand seeing Skaters go against each other.

If we break down both Sawyer and Kate grieving over their separation, we get this. Sawyer was upset with his loss of Kate for 8 initial episodes (he still mentiones this in LaFleur), and he has expressed it more or less clearly at least 4 times:
- when he tongue slipped and said he jumped because he wanted "her" to have a chance instead of "them"
- when Locke asked if he wanted her back and he shut himself out and said it didn´t matter what he wanted
- when he confessed to Juliet he saw Kate in the jungle
- when he confessed to Horace he wasn´t sure he´d ever stop thinking about her

From Kate, we got a...
- 2 strange conversations with Jack on the boat and aat the airport about the horrible things happened the day they left. Both times, it´s very easy to interpret she was speaking of the frighter explosion, and not Sawyer at all.
- WHH is the only moment where we can conclude the separation affected her, but she comes off as angry at Sawyer for selfishly leaving her. This supposedly explains her incredibly cold dismissal of all leftbehinders (and him) after Locke´s plea. Now why do we all forget SHE left him in Dharmaville, after sleeping-together-but-not-quite (and let´s face it, it is a below the belt blow to a guy like him), and when they finally reunited near the helicopter made a beeline to Jack right in front of Sawyer.

Now, she has every right to be with whom she wants, but she doesn´t have any right to feel "abandoned" by Sawyer. Sorry folks, it was the other way around. I never disliked Kate more then during the "how long can we play house" scene. And I need her to come forward and commit to the guy to be happy with Skate again.

:clap: :bowdown: You said it all, sister.:)

It's crazy how split this fandom has become, it really is. There are some who think there is nothing wrong with Skate's story at all and that things are on track for the last season, and there are some who think there are nothing but problems and things standing in the way of Skate even getting close to where they need to be. It's bizarre how we all interpret things differently.

[Obsidian76]

ow why do we all forget SHE left him in Dharmaville, after sleeping-together-but-not-quite (and let´s face it, it is a below the belt blow to a guy like him)


Oh, right. How dare she say "no" to sex. What is this, the 21st century? :rolleyes: And she left because he was being an @sshole about the whole pregnancy issue. Again. And you'll remember the next day he was playing horsehoes with Hurley like nothing happened. He obviously wasn't too bothered by their fight.


, and when they finally reunited near the helicopter made a beeline to Jack right in front of Sawyer.

Yeah. To check on his seeping injury. How romantic. :rolleyes:

Quit trying to make Sawyer look like a victim when he's anything but.

ETA- I think Kate's taking care of Sawyer's daughter at the risk of being caught in a parole violation, for three years no less, more than makes up for their fight. Now he needs to make up for trying to abandon his people.

[luminous]

It's crazy how split this fandom has become, it really is. There are some who think there is nothing wrong with Skate's story at all and that things are on track for the last season, and there are some who think there are nothing but problems and things standing in the way of Skate even getting close to where they need to be. It's bizarre how we all interpret things differently.
Amen, sister. :D

I used to defend Kate against anything and anyone, but now I can't even defend her to myself. I just hate what they did with the character. I can understand that people feel the same way towards Sawyer. *shrug*

[LadyIrina]

Oi! Attention!

Tempers seem to be flaring and I bring you a reminder before warnings need to be handed out. We already have a thread for you to do your negative analysis of Skate. I suggest you bring the debate over to Negative Critical Analysis of Skate (http://lost-forum.com/showthread.php?t=76373) and have at it! (As mature Skaters, I can trust you to know the difference between debating and bashing/being rude, right? :shifty: ) Due to the large amounts of reports over this, we will be watching the debate closely and rudeness will not be tolerated.

The topic of this thread is an eventual closure for Jate. Stay on topic, stay nice and remember we have a long hiatus to get through so let's all try to get along.

[ajessica]

Yeah...I don't get people saying that Jate lasted 3 years and Suliet has been together together for 3 years.
Obviously Sawyer and Juliet spent 3 years getting to know each other and "having each others backs" but I don't think that they were actually together for 3 years. As you said Sawyer spent a long time laying in bed awake thinking about Kate. I would hope he wouldn't be sleeping with Juliet and then spending his nights thinking about Kate. I don't know. I kinda hope that they mention how long Sawyer and Juliet's relationship lasted...as well as Jate.
Jack and Kate were together for maybe a few months. Because if you look at Aaron's age. Jack and Kate weren't together at all till after her trial. And after her trial when Kate got home, she went to wake up Aaron, and he looked maybe 2 and a half-ish. And then he looked approximately the same age when Kate and Jack were engaged. And then Kate said "I've spent 3 years trying to get over all the horrible things that happened that day." so we know it's only been 3 years total. So I think that Jack and Kate were together 6 months at max.

do you think there is a paralell (sp?) between Juliet and Sawyer asking each other all the time if they have their backs and jack and kate? cause Jack is always asking Kate" are you with me?" "do you have my back?" you know for like 4 seasons, i don t know what it could mean. Also i don t know why people dismiss Juliet so much the whole relationship is part of Sawyer 's history and growing it is important for his caracter and juliet death was heartbreaking.

[Lyly Ford]

If you don't want to read a pro Kate, anti Jate/Suliet post, then there is nothing to see here.




So looks now define a ship. I don't get the point here. Stop taking everything so literal. Jack was wrong. Kate did like the old Jack. That's the Jack she loves and he just called most of their relationship misery. People need to get over that what they have is important and they don't need to behave like they are in 5th grade and Kate needs to have both island boyfriends in front of her and break up with one of them so the other see's it. I really can't understand why people don't get that she would be upset that about Jack erasing everything, and stop defining Kate as only about Jack. Its irritating and against canon.



Sorry, but side eye look at Kate means nothing when you consider his behaviour towards Kate since she got back. That's nice that Sawyer looked at Kate during Benards's cheesy speech, but he seemed more concerned over his oj then if Kate, the one he loves, dies because a bomb was about to go off. What Sawyer did before she left, is irrelevant right now to the story. If you watch WHH and you still don't know if Kate loves Sawyer, I feel for your life and her being upset being Jack wants to go back to a life where he isn't a screw up doesn't negate a thing to do with Skate.



If you still need this going into the last season, I would just give up on this dream. She won't ever doing anything that will be enough.



Much respect and such but are you kidding? Now we are using internet polls to say, see Suliet smokes the original ships of Jate and Skate. Good lawd, that is so ridiculous. If you talk about the last one from abc.com and if I were a Suliet fan no way would I be pointing out that poll where abc publically said it was hacked. But you know, I'm sure the final results are totally accurate, were not fudged and yeah the world is Suliet's oyster. So internet polls mean jack because its the same people voting over and over in hopes that Damon changes his story because some shippers on the interweb clicked their fingers numb.






Why not. I sure as hell do. And sorry, but in no way is Skate on sided with poor Sawyer always picking up the slack. Good grief. If it weren't for Kate when they were captured in season 3, Sawyer would still be flirting and watching from afar.



Ah, I see now. Sawyer fan that thinks this is still Kate's ballgame. As far as I'm concerned Kate doesn't have to do a darn thing and yes Sawyer is the one that needs to step up. If he wants Kate. Kate doesn't have to prove a thing. Doesn't have to prove how loyal she was to her island fling. Doesn't have to prove how she did in fact love him. Kate has no balls in this. Sawyer does, metaphorically speaking, of course, because I think, literally, season 5, took those away. At least half the season they weren't there. You declared yourself as a Sawyer fan, well, I'm a Kate fan first and no way do I want her chasing after a guy that did nothing but confirm to her that she wasn't good enough for him. And at this point, I don't even know if I want Kate with him, especially after what he pulled in Follow The Leader. Funny how that works right, when most people are wringing their hands at the thought of, do I want Sawyer with Kate. At this point I'm in this to see how Kate's arc finishes. I would have said Sawyer's but I think they hacked up his character so well in season 5.



Build up Jate? Please, that ship could not have been treated worse if the writers tried. I'm just going to get right to season 4 and 5 Jate cause they all but ignored Jate since season 2. Zero development. The build up of Jate in season 4 consisted of Jack reminding Kate that she should be with Sawyer, that Sawyer loves her, Kate trying to make it work with Sawyer, Sawyer being an ass to Kate since The Brig, Sawyer walking away from Kate, twice. I saw Jate being build back into a friendship, on island. And no one will ever convince me that talking about nauseau is flirting. Off island, it took nearly 3 years for them to get their act together. In that time, Kate was the one that was keeping Skate alive, not Sawyer. This is not Jate being built up. This is Jate as an afterthought. Lets just get the two leads together. Again, the re built of Jate again centers on friendship. Helping Kate sort out the Aaron issue. Using someone for sex and then throwing them away like a dirty tissue, is not rebuilding. Suliet and Jate are perfect mirrors for each other and that is not an accident. So what if Sawyer moved on. Was he suppose to pine after Kate forever. We have a triangle, and this happens all the time, so I don't the bitterness. Boy is in love with girl, he loses her, tries to move on with another, but is still not over the first girl. Jesus, this is so cliche. I hate Suliet, what it did to Sawyer, hate that people are coming into the rival ship's forum and continually want people to admit this or acknowledge that, but of course Sawyer was shown to be affected by Juliet's death, so what.



Funny that you don't want easy bake stuff or quick fixes and want characters to act in a genuine way and yet you had no problem with Suliet. Its funny because that was Suliet. Sawyer was ooc from LaFleur on, Juliet did nothing but mother Sawyer and tell him what to do and when to it and how to do it up until LaFleur. After that, she become a pathetic whiny insecure housewife that cried over Kate. If her and Sawyer were so solid after 3 years, she wouldn't get into a jealous snit over a name. She wouldn't worry over Kate's mere presence. So the whole, Suliet is deeper and more solid then Skate doesn't wash. and Suliet was the easy bake stuff of this season.



Suliet and Sulieteers got closure. Suliet is deader then dead. Was over the minute Kate came back. Juliet called him off, called him out over and over again, over his feelings for Kate. Told him he wouldn't love her as much as he loved Kate. All true. Why make a mockery of her death by having her come back as a lame vision/ghost and tell Sawyer (again), hey, 'member that one time I told you we were over and you will love Kate and we weren't meant to be, yeah, well now that I'm deader then dead, I really mean it.


I think its hella funny that once again a frakkin look between Jack and Kate is being heralded as the greatest proof of Jate is IT in season 6. Last time I head that bs was in season 2. See, they loooooked at each other on the dock. Kate and Jack are so moving forward. *cough* I mean of course.




That's kinda weird, I think there is ample evidence of that, but you continually get played cause of looks.



Right, just like season 5 he was in a dark place.



The thrill and excitment are gone, you are indifferent to it and really have been since I Do, 3 years ago, stop fronting. If people are indifferent, don't like Skate, they have no chance, Skate got nothing in 2 seasons, etc, yadda, yadda, and you continue to do nothing but talk about them, then I can only conclude you are masochistic.

luaneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee i missed you :hug: thanks for this post, that's cool to see you here :D it feel more like "home" now ;)

[Prince_Rajani]

do you think there is a paralell (sp?) between Juliet and Sawyer asking each other all the time if they have their backs and jack and kate? cause Jack is always asking Kate" are you with me?" "do you have my back?" you know for like 4 seasons, i don t know what it could mean. Also i don t know why people dismiss Juliet so much the whole relationship is part of Sawyer 's history and growing it is important for his caracter and juliet death was heartbreaking.

I think there is a definite parallel there, jessica! ;) I think it's insecurity. If you really trust someone, you do not have to constantly ask them if they have your back. You watch Skate...they're never going into things with, " You got my back, Freckles?" And yet they cover each other easily, like when Kate gunned down that guy in the finale who was aiming at Sawyer's head.

I mean, if you look, James only asks if Juliet has his back whenever he sees that she is being insecure about Kate. Similarly, Jack asks it of Kate whenever she is being distant or shows teetering loyalties.

IMO, yes, it is totally a trust thing. Deep down, Suliet and jate are NOT relationships based on a foundation of trust. They're almost relationships of convenience.

[Matarreyes]

Deep down, Suliet and jate are NOT relationships based on a foundation of trust. They're almost relationships of convenience.
Almost agree with you. Convenience, yes. Not in the wrong, selfish sense (like for status or money) but more on a primal level: after so many horrible things happened and both Kate and Sawyer lost their loves (and it´s canon now, IMO, that both were each other first choices), they settled for people who respected them and gave stability to them. I do believe Suliet trusted each other. I don´t know about Jate, but I could be convinced they did at some moments. I believe that the only thing they didn´t trust was former Skate feelings. Both Jack and Juliet were shown to be very insecure about their respective rivals, and funnily enough that insecurity ruined both ships without any intervention of Kate or Sawyer.

I think this may be the crux of the problem for us Skaters. We saw Jate and Suliet sink, but we didn´t see Skate refloat. And we are bickering among us whether it´s Sawyer or Kate who should be stepping forward, when actually both Sawyer and Kate were still trying to save their old ships in season 5, which I totally approve of. We weren´t supposed to see any outward interest in each other, and we didn´t see it. The ships sunk because they weren´t strong enough for open water, not because Sawyer or Kate sabotaged them. I am perfectly OK with this storyline, and fully believe they will emerge better persons from all this.

[Saturnine]

If you don't want to read a pro Kate, anti Jate/Suliet post, then there is nothing to see here.




So looks now define a ship. I don't get the point here. Stop taking everything so literal. Jack was wrong. Kate did like the old Jack. That's the Jack she loves and he just called most of their relationship misery. People need to get over that what they have is important and they don't need to behave like they are in 5th grade and Kate needs to have both island boyfriends in front of her and break up with one of them so the other see's it. I really can't understand why people don't get that she would be upset that about Jack erasing everything, and stop defining Kate as only about Jack. Its irritating and against canon.



Sorry, but side eye look at Kate means nothing when you consider his behaviour towards Kate since she got back. That's nice that Sawyer looked at Kate during Benards's cheesy speech, but he seemed more concerned over his oj then if Kate, the one he loves, dies because a bomb was about to go off. What Sawyer did before she left, is irrelevant right now to the story. If you watch WHH and you still don't know if Kate loves Sawyer, I feel for your life and her being upset being Jack wants to go back to a life where he isn't a screw up doesn't negate a thing to do with Skate.



If you still need this going into the last season, I would just give up on this dream. She won't ever doing anything that will be enough.



Much respect and such but are you kidding? Now we are using internet polls to say, see Suliet smokes the original ships of Jate and Skate. Good lawd, that is so ridiculous. If you talk about the last one from abc.com and if I were a Suliet fan no way would I be pointing out that poll where abc publically said it was hacked. But you know, I'm sure the final results are totally accurate, were not fudged and yeah the world is Suliet's oyster. So internet polls mean jack because its the same people voting over and over in hopes that Damon changes his story because some shippers on the interweb clicked their fingers numb.






Why not. I sure as hell do. And sorry, but in no way is Skate on sided with poor Sawyer always picking up the slack. Good grief. If it weren't for Kate when they were captured in season 3, Sawyer would still be flirting and watching from afar.



Ah, I see now. Sawyer fan that thinks this is still Kate's ballgame. As far as I'm concerned Kate doesn't have to do a darn thing and yes Sawyer is the one that needs to step up. If he wants Kate. Kate doesn't have to prove a thing. Doesn't have to prove how loyal she was to her island fling. Doesn't have to prove how she did in fact love him. Kate has no balls in this. Sawyer does, metaphorically speaking, of course, because I think, literally, season 5, took those away. At least half the season they weren't there. You declared yourself as a Sawyer fan, well, I'm a Kate fan first and no way do I want her chasing after a guy that did nothing but confirm to her that she wasn't good enough for him. And at this point, I don't even know if I want Kate with him, especially after what he pulled in Follow The Leader. Funny how that works right, when most people are wringing their hands at the thought of, do I want Sawyer with Kate. At this point I'm in this to see how Kate's arc finishes. I would have said Sawyer's but I think they hacked up his character so well in season 5.



Build up Jate? Please, that ship could not have been treated worse if the writers tried. I'm just going to get right to season 4 and 5 Jate cause they all but ignored Jate since season 2. Zero development. The build up of Jate in season 4 consisted of Jack reminding Kate that she should be with Sawyer, that Sawyer loves her, Kate trying to make it work with Sawyer, Sawyer being an ass to Kate since The Brig, Sawyer walking away from Kate, twice. I saw Jate being build back into a friendship, on island. And no one will ever convince me that talking about nauseau is flirting. Off island, it took nearly 3 years for them to get their act together. In that time, Kate was the one that was keeping Skate alive, not Sawyer. This is not Jate being built up. This is Jate as an afterthought. Lets just get the two leads together. Again, the re built of Jate again centers on friendship. Helping Kate sort out the Aaron issue. Using someone for sex and then throwing them away like a dirty tissue, is not rebuilding. Suliet and Jate are perfect mirrors for each other and that is not an accident. So what if Sawyer moved on. Was he suppose to pine after Kate forever. We have a triangle, and this happens all the time, so I don't the bitterness. Boy is in love with girl, he loses her, tries to move on with another, but is still not over the first girl. Jesus, this is so cliche. I hate Suliet, what it did to Sawyer, hate that people are coming into the rival ship's forum and continually want people to admit this or acknowledge that, but of course Sawyer was shown to be affected by Juliet's death, so what.



Funny that you don't want easy bake stuff or quick fixes and want characters to act in a genuine way and yet you had no problem with Suliet. Its funny because that was Suliet. Sawyer was ooc from LaFleur on, Juliet did nothing but mother Sawyer and tell him what to do and when to it and how to do it up until LaFleur. After that, she become a pathetic whiny insecure housewife that cried over Kate. If her and Sawyer were so solid after 3 years, she wouldn't get into a jealous snit over a name. She wouldn't worry over Kate's mere presence. So the whole, Suliet is deeper and more solid then Skate doesn't wash. and Suliet was the easy bake stuff of this season.



Suliet and Sulieteers got closure. Suliet is deader then dead. Was over the minute Kate came back. Juliet called him off, called him out over and over again, over his feelings for Kate. Told him he wouldn't love her as much as he loved Kate. All true. Why make a mockery of her death by having her come back as a lame vision/ghost and tell Sawyer (again), hey, 'member that one time I told you we were over and you will love Kate and we weren't meant to be, yeah, well now that I'm deader then dead, I really mean it.


I think its hella funny that once again a frakkin look between Jack and Kate is being heralded as the greatest proof of Jate is IT in season 6. Last time I head that bs was in season 2. See, they loooooked at each other on the dock. Kate and Jack are so moving forward. *cough* I mean of course.




That's kinda weird, I think there is ample evidence of that, but you continually get played cause of looks.



Right, just like season 5 he was in a dark place.



The thrill and excitment are gone, you are indifferent to it and really have been since I Do, 3 years ago, stop fronting. If people are indifferent, don't like Skate, they have no chance, Skate got nothing in 2 seasons, etc, yadda, yadda, and you continue to do nothing but talk about them, then I can only conclude you are masochistic.

I'm mostly a lurker here but this... was GOLD. I'm gonna name my first born child after you.
Seriously, finally someone spelled the truth.

[Debbie]

Almost agree with you. Convenience, yes. Not in the wrong, selfish sense (like for status or money) but more on a primal level: after so many horrible things happened and both Kate and Sawyer lost their loves (and it´s canon now, IMO, that both were each other first choices), they settled for people who respected them and gave stability to them. I do believe Suliet trusted each other. I don´t know about Jate, but I could be convinced they did at some moments. I believe that the only thing they didn´t trust was former Skate feelings. Both Jack and Juliet were shown to be very insecure about their respective rivals, and funnily enough that insecurity ruined both ships without any intervention of Kate or Sawyer.

I think this may be the crux of the problem for us Skaters. We saw Jate and Suliet sink, but we didn´t see Skate refloat. And we are bickering among us whether it´s Sawyer or Kate who should be stepping forward, when actually both Sawyer and Kate were still trying to save their old ships in season 5, which I totally approve of. We weren´t supposed to see any outward interest in each other, and we didn´t see it. The ships sunk because they weren´t strong enough for open water, not because Sawyer or Kate sabotaged them. I am perfectly OK with this storyline, and fully believe they will emerge better persons from all this.

Yeah I think you just nailed it. I just hope you are right.

[tv-fan189]

honestly don't get how some skaters so fiercely refuse to recognize Suliet as a ship, when it's probably what will give us what we wanted for so long: a grown up Sawyer, ready to be with Kate, if she makes an effort in that direction.
I am sorry but their kind of ship means nothing to me. A pairing that came out of no where as an obstacle for when Kate came back to the island? How am I supposed to recognize them as a ship when they imploded four days after Kate got back? They can't even last five episodes. The only thing I see is the fandom placing too much signficance on a floppy and defective couple; I am not going to waste MY time shipping a pairing I know has no chance in hell of ending up together.

And Sawyer's supposed maturity is a matter of opinion. The old Sawyer didnt leave his friends behind, he fought beside them, even if he was a bit more rugged than he is now. His most heroic gesture happened three years before then he became a selfish coward who wanted to preserve the fake life he created for himself. No one gave Kate any free points for raising Aaron over the three years, no one called it maturity. So why should I credit Sawyer for doing the same thing?

[Luanne]

I am sorry but their kind of ship means nothing to me. A pairing that came out of no where as an obstacle for when Kate came back to the island? How am I supposed to recognize them as a ship when they imploded four days after Kate got back? They can't even last five episodes. The only thing I see is the fandom placing too much signficance on a floppy and defective couple; I am not going to waste MY time shipping a pairing I know has no chance in hell of ending up together.


I wouldn't worry about it because Damon Lindelof, the guy that matters not some internet fans, actually thinks Suliet is insignificant. So I really don't get why Suliet fans continue to want to strongarm Skaters into admitting anything about Suliet. I think if people have to work this hard into justifying their ship then its about to sink. If your ship only works if Kate never ever comes back, then its not the best ship you think it is. No matter how many times, you got my back, I got your back is uttered.

[luminous]

I wouldn't worry about it because Damon Lindelof, the guy that matters not some internet fans, actually thinks Suliet is insignificant. So I really don't get why Suliet fans continue to want to strongarm Skaters into admitting anything about Suliet. I think if people have to work this hard into justifying their ship then its about to sink. If your ship only works if Kate never ever comes back, then its not the best ship you think it is. No matter how many times, you got my back, I got your back is uttered.
If internet fans don't matter, then I have to ask: what are you doing here?

Unfortunately, this discussion has no possible solution. We'll all think different stuff about the same thing, that's the beauty of it. Suliet was meaningful to me, in a way that Skate was failing to be for two seasons. It happened. It's there. If you want to look the other way while it happens, it's your thing. In my opinion, it changed things, it changed Sawyer. I see it as a positive thing for Skate as well. I'm not going to change my opinion, as I doubt you'll change yours.

Peace guys. :) It's a tv show.

[tv-fan189]

I wouldn't worry about it because Damon Lindelof, the guy that matters not some internet fans, actually thinks Suliet is insignificant. So I really don't get why Suliet fans continue to want to strongarm Skaters into admitting anything about Suliet. I think if people have to work this hard into justifying their ship then its about to sink. If your ship only works if Kate never ever comes back, then its not the best ship you think it is. No matter how many times, you got my back, I got your back is uttered.

Exactly. It's a matter of opinion, what we feel is good for us is subjective. If people think Suliet is a real story good for them, but I'm not going to do so because they don't have a story IMO. They don't even have build up, so what is there to admit? I also don't really understand why Sulieters are so gun-pressed to getting Skaters to admit that Suliet is a ship. Is it a popular belief that if people like them, that means that they will end up together? Newsflash, just because people online liked them doesnt elevate the chance that they will end up together. I'd like for someone to actually give me some concrete evidence as to why Suliet is an OTP. So their an OTP because people online ship them? Thanks for the information everyone.:rolleyes:

The fact of the matter is, Juliet saw what she needed to see before she died, that Sawyer didn't love her the way he loved Kate. I thought the finale was cowardly for her. She IS a coward. Wanting to erase things because she couldn't get Sawyer to love her. That is pathetic and even more embarassing to an increasingly pathetic ship. I mean how lame can she get to cry three times she loves him as she is falling into a hole, even though she already knew that he didnt love her the same way.

Btw as far as Im concerned its Sawyer who messed up this season. He treated Kate far worse than she has ever treated him. Kate has never been abrasive or intentionally rude to Sawyer as he was to her this season. Why would Kate put herself out there for him? She doesnt have to prove anything. I would rather she not beg for any attention from Sawyer is that is the case.

If you want to look the other way while it happens, it's your thing
I mean no offense by this but I find this rather consdescending. What makes the world unique is what we all have different POVs. I saw the story happen and I didn't buy into it, it doesnt mean I rejected it happened or looked the other way just because I dont see it the way you do. This is a pro-Skate forum, your not going to find too many people agreeing with your POV here.:)

[luminous]

Oh well, I'm still allowed to give it, aren't I? And I am still a Skater. :)

It wasn't meant as condescending at all, but when you have people rejecting the existence of a ship that went on (in the lost timeline) for a long period of time, you have to assume they are looking the other way. It happened. It meant different things for all of us, but it did happen. No one is forcing anyone to ship Suliet, far from that. But not admitting it happened is looking the other way.

[Katie27]

Suliet happened. There's no denying that...but it's all in how you look at it. While it didn't make me as mad as it made some of the other Skaters in here...the fact is that we didn't get to see their relationship blossom. That's why it's so hard to see it as the OTP. We saw that they were in a relationship, but there was no build up to it. We didn't see how they got together or how they fell in love or even how long they've been living together. Just because they both said ILY doesn't equal OTP.
That's my big problem with Suliet. And for that matter also Jate.
Skate we saw from season 1 begin a friendship, and an understanding. We saw it for 4 seasons grow into a love that is completley undeniable.
Jate I guess we saw some of the build up, but the 3 years later thing when they were actually living together, we saw none of...we saw Jack say to Kate during Eggtown that he didn't want to be with her because of Aaron. And then SNBH brought us them living together and being engaged...we have no idea why Jack decided to come to her, but Aaron's age suggests that it took him at least 2 and a half years to want to be with Kate, and then we have no idea how long their relationship lasted. Again...if you look at Aaron's age...Kate and Jack couldn't have been together for more that 6 months.
Then with the Suliet. We saw that Sawyer or Jim LaFleur...picks flowers and lives with Juliet...but it was a completely fake life. Sawyer and Juliet both know that. He may have grown and matured through the 3 years living on the island, but I think that it was his love and then loss of Kate that changed him the most. He realized that he could fall in love with someone, but then the woman he fell in love with he had to give up and jump out of a helicopter for.

As for Sawyer's behavior toward Kate...I see nothing wrong with how he treated her throughtout the season. It was very awkward for both of them, I'm sure. First of all when they were reunited....Sawyer said the day before that he was over her...he knew damn well that he wasn't over her. You could see on his face when he saw her again that he was so not over her. Then they were both avoiding each other in the Otherville, but I think it had more to do with the fact that they weren't supposed to know each other. It would have looked kinda weird if Sawyer had gone to Kate's house the day they came back...but actually he did...to ask her why she came back. He couldn't be all gushy with her immediately because he did want to stay loyal to Juliet. It had nothing to do with who he loved more at that point...it just had to do with the fact that he didn't want to hurt Juliet, even if he does love Kate more. He knew that he had to stay loyal to Juliet because he didn't want to revert back to his old conning ways (but in fact he conned himself into thinking that he was over Kate...:shrug:) Then when they were in the middle of the jungle together...how was he supposed to act? He had one woman who has stuck by his side for 3 years and then there was Kate who did this enormous favor for him. I'm sure at that point he was very torn with his feelings because he knew what a great thing Kate did for him in taking care of Clementine, but at the same time he has to remain loyal to Juliet. At that point I think he's still trying so desperately to believe that what he and Juliet have is completley real. And while I do think it was real...his love for Juliet doesn't even compare to his love for Kate.
Juliet knew it from the moment Kate got back that Sawyer would never forget about his Freckles. It's why she broke it off. She probably would have done it sooner if there hadn't been more dire events going on around them. The fact that Sawyer and Juliet were going to leave, never to look back...it bothered me a lot. It bothered me because it made me feel really bad for poor Kate...Kate had one guy going "I want to erase the past 3 years because our lives were horrible and miserable" and then she had another guy going "Good riddance to the island and everyone on it." And I still think that at that point, Sawyer was still trying to hold on to some sembelance of his past 3 years on the island. I think that he thought if he got off the island with Juliet he could forget about Kate again and try to be happy. And it's horrible, but at the same time, I think he feels like his fake life is the only way he could try to be happy.
Regaurdless of what did or didn't happen throughout season 5, Sawyer never forgot about Kate, and he did end up going back to the island with Kate. And he did end up looking at Kate when Bernard was talking about being together is the only thing that matters. He loved Juliet...but he's in love with Kate.

[tv-fan189]

Oh well, I'm still allowed to give it, aren't I? And I am still a Skater. :)

It wasn't meant as condescending at all, but when you have people rejecting the existence of a ship that went on (in the lost timeline) for a long period of time, you have to assume they are looking the other way. It happened. It meant different things for all of us, but it did happen. No one is forcing anyone to ship Suliet, far from that. But not admitting it happened is looking the other way.

Sure you can give your opinion but at the same time there is no need to belittle ours because we don't see the validty of Suliet. Just because a ship is presented to me doesn't mean I have to accept what I see. I am not a blind follower, I have to formulate a POV based on the product which is presented to me. The Suliet storyline to me is like saying someone read a novel because they read the first and last chapters of the book. Where is the middle portion? Hard to get invested in what barely transpired on your screen. So when Suliet say their "I love yous" I don't look the other way, but I do scoff and laugh. The fact that they keep saying their I love yous is a cheap reminder to the audience that their a couple because in most of their scenes they stand five feet apart. Hard to feel the love in a couple which is practically asexual.

I think the fandom has gotten so used to fanfiction they don't even care to see a well crafted storyline anymore. They just figure if they want to know what happened in the middle, they can just make stuff up and imagine a pretty scenario in their head through endless fanfiction. I just can't get behind implied Lost, I like to see things happen step by step. So sure I see that Suliet is canon or whatever, but that doesnt mean I see them as a credible ship.

[Luanne]

If internet fans don't matter, then I have to ask: what are you doing here?


I occassionally like to talk about a ship I like,not like other people that do nothing but talk about the rival ship and trash Skate. Internet fans don't matter in the larger story, don't get it twisted. I don't affect the story, you don't affect the story. Internet fans like to think they are bigger then they are othewise they wouldn't send in things to the producers or say, maybe if we vote Juliet the greatest female ever they will bring her back and maybe you guy's if we vote Suliet in polls Damon will see it and he will be forced to being back the contrived mess that was Suliet. Damon Lindelof will continue to write his story. A story where he has never called Skate as a couple, as a relationship or as a story insignificant. That was saved for your ship, Suliet.

It wasn't meant as condescending at all, but when you have people rejecting the existence of a ship that went on (in the lost timeline) for a long period of time, you have to assume they are looking the other way. It happened. It meant different things for all of us, but it did happen. No one is forcing anyone to ship Suliet, far from that. But not admitting it happened is looking the other way.

Can you quote a post by anyone where they said Suliet didn't happen, that Suliet never existed? Saying that it is lame, not as super terriffic as someone want you to admit, saying that it destroyed 2 previously good characters, saying that it was contrived, not deep or solid is very different from saying it didn't exist, by the way.

And I still think that at that point, Sawyer was still trying to hold on to some sembelance of his past 3 years on the island. I think that he thought if he got off the island with Juliet he could forget about Kate again and try to be happy.

I think its awesome that you can come up with excuses for Sawyer in this instance. He can be with whoever he wants, and still go back and save his friends, you know. He didn't care that a bomb was about to go off. All he cared about was leaving.

Suliet happened. There's no denying that...but it's all in how you look at it. While it didn't make me as mad as it made some of the other Skaters in here...the fact is that we didn't get to see their relationship blossom. That's why it's so hard to see it as the OTP. We saw that they were in a relationship, but there was no build up to it. We didn't see how they got together or how they fell in love or even how long they've been living together. Just because they both said ILY doesn't equal OTP.

Yeah I'm not getting behind a couple that was implied. Implied romance was all the rage for the past 2 seasons, but also, why do I want Sawyer to settle for second best, and that is what Juliet is. The reason why they hooked up, please I'm not getting behind that nor will I get behind a hollow relationship. It only survives in a bubble as long as Kate is never mentioned or seen from. Yeah real solid.

[Katie27]

I think its awesome that you can come up with excuses for Sawyer in this instance. He can be with whoever he wants, and still go back and save his friends, you know. He didn't care that a bomb was about to go off. All he cared about was leaving.

I'm not saying that I liked it...In fact I think I said I hated it...but that was his excuse. I didn't like the fact that he was just going to leave the island. But since he didn't, we will never know what he actually was going to do once he got off the island. He could have spent the rest of his life feeling guilty about leaving the island and he could have changed his mind to go back, but we will never know what would have actually happened, because the way it happened was Kate came and Juliet said "Let's go back."
I just feel like everyone has a reason for their actions. Maybe not a good reason...even Jack has reasons for doing the things he does (even if they're not good reasons.). I just feel like Sawyer and Kate are both great characters and they're great together so I don't want to think that Sawyer would have maliciously left Kate on the island with the bomb for absolutely no reason. He wouldn't want to have her die all over again.
And as I said, it really doesn't matter that he was going to leave, because he ended up going back and I have complete faith that he still loves Kate more than ever and they will eventually find their way back to each other's arms.

[Luanne]

I just feel like Sawyer and Kate are both great characters and they're great together so I don't want to think that Sawyer would have maliciously left Kate on the island with the bomb for absolutely no reason. He wouldn't want to have her die all over again.
And as I said, it really doesn't matter that he was going to leave, because he ended up going back and I have complete faith that he still loves Kate more than ever and they will eventually find their way back to each other's arms.

I'm not going to argue the fact that he still loves etc, but genuinely without the usual sarcasm, I think its great you can defend him here because its the worse thing he's ever done. Kate was with him so she wasn't going to die, but you have his friends like Hurley and Miles and Jin that will die if he doesn't go back, and he simply doesn't care. And he really didn't look all that thrilled that Kate was there, so he would have left the island and have gone back if it weren't for her and Juliet.

[Katie27]

I'm not going to argue the fact that he still loves etc, but genuinely without the usual sarcasm, I think its great you can defend him here because its the worse thing he's ever done. Kate was with him so she wasn't going to die, but you have his friends like Hurley and Miles and Jin that will die if he doesn't go back, and he simply doesn't care. And he really didn't look all that thrilled that Kate was there, so he would have left the island and have gone back if it weren't for her and Juliet.

True. But as I said...I don't like it...It's just the excuse that Sawyer himself could use.

But that being said...when it comes to Kate and Sawyer, I'm basically an eternal optimist and I can defend them in almost any situation. Since Sawyer is my favorite character, he can basically do no wrong, even if it is the worst thing he could have done.
I know it's crazy...but if people can defend Jack for all the crappy things he's done...including the whole..."I'm the one who came back, I'm the one who saved you...Your son! You're not even related to him."-people defended Jack for that and said "Oh, he was just drunk, and it's just because Kate lied to him." then I'm going to do everything I can to defend the crappy things Sawyer's done.

[Bryden]

Luanne and tv-fan189 :high5: I agree completely.


Peace? I can’t think of anything more divisive in the Skate Forum than preaching about how "meaningful" another ship is, with the intention of making Skate appear less-than. No free passes from me.


I believe Suliet was created with a purpose in mind, that purpose has been very clear, Suliet only lasted as long as it needed to last (Which wasn't very long…), and then it went the way of the Jughead bomb, which also served a purpose. Gotta love how this LOST stuff always comes together.



And a thousand pardons, but WTH is the purpose of this thread? “Jate ending in the finale?” But there’s already a finale thread. And debate threads. And Jate ended a long time ago, ergo Jack’s reason FOR the bomb. :p And yet if you look at the conversation in here, it’s about Suliet…



I know, I know. I’m leaving. Have...fun? :shrug:

[tv-fan189]

Peace? I can’t think of anything more divisive in the Skate Forum than preaching about how "meaningful" another ship is, with the intention of making Skate appear less-than. No free passes from me.
Exactly. No Jate fan comes into the Skate forum trying to convince us about how meaningful their ship is. Why should anyone else do the same? I wont be giving any free passes because Sawyer is part of the Suliet ship.


I believe Suliet was created with a purpose in mind, that purpose has been very clear, Suliet only lasted as long as it needed to last (Which wasn't very long…), and then it went the way of the Jughead bomb, which also served a purpose. Gotta love how this LOST stuff always comes together.
Exactly. We didn't miss the point of Suliet, everyone else did IMO. It was created just for angst by way of Skate. It was the fans that made it into what it was not.


And a thousand pardons, but WTH is the purpose of this thread? “Jate ending in the finale?” But there’s already a finale thread. And debate threads. And Jate ended a long time ago, ergo Jack’s reason FOR the bomb. :p And yet if you look at the conversation in here, it’s about Suliet…
Right? The purpose of this thread is to discuss Jate closure and so far all I see is arguments trying to ram down how meaningful Suliet is in the Skate forum. We are completely offtopic and there is another forum to discuss how awesome Suliet is.

[Marystat]

This thread has run it's course and also ppl seem to be unable to stay on topic here, in spite of several posts from mods and even an admin asking you guys to be back on topic, so this thread is now closed.