"Not in your condition"

[dnuofdnatsol]

When Eloise tells Widmore she's taking Jack and Kate to the Bomb, he tells her (quietly) that...

"Are you insane"?
"I'm worried about you"
"Not in your condition"

So, it appears that she's pregnant with Daniel. Of course, I wonder how he ended up with the last name "Faraday"? Hawking + Widmore = a Faraday? :)

[shred]

I didn't catch that. If that's what he said, then I guess you're right.

[Coca Cola Zero]

So, it appears that she's pregnant with Daniel. Of course, I wonder how he ended up with the last name "Faraday"? Hawking + Widmore = a Faraday? :)

There is probably a step-dad involved at a later time whose last name is Faraday and they lie to Daniel about him being his real father... because he didn't know Widmore was his dad until Widmore told him just prior to his trip to the island.

[Giraffe]

There is probably a step-dad involved at a later time whose last name is Faraday and they lie to Daniel about him being his real father... because he didn't know Widmore was his dad until Widmore told him just prior to his trip to the island.

Widmore didn't tell Daniel he was his dad.

[dnuofdnatsol]

Right under where Eloise signed the note in Daniel's book;

This journal belongs to....

It was left blank by Daniel.

A good thing I guess, since Eloise might wonder about his last name.

[Gibey]

The timing here is kind of strange. It's 1977, shouldn't Daniel have already been born by now?

Think about it. When Desmond's mind was skipping in "The Constant," it was going to 1996, and Dan was a physics professor. If Dan wasn't already alive in 1977, he would have been, at most 19 years old. I know he said in the last episode that he was the youngest doctor ever to graduate from Oxford... but come on, that's pushing it.

[elleesa]

I've given up trying to figure how old everyone is and when they were born. It gets too confusing.

[dnuofdnatsol]

Hmmmmmm.

Penny is Widmore's Daughter.
Daniel is supposed to be Eloise's Son.

Could that be "penny" that Eloise is pregant with? If it's Daniel, and Widmore is indeed the "father", that would make Penny and Daniel Brother and Sister (or at least half brother/sister) if Widmore had Penny with another woman?

[elleesa]

I don't think Eloise is Penny's mother. And Daniel seems older than Penny.

[Sacred Knight]

Daniel and Penny are half-siblings. Ben said in Dead is Dead as Charles was being exiled that he had a child with "an outsider". Even if Eloise is living off island already at this point in time, I don't think she would be referred to as an outsider.

[flightless]

The timing here is kind of strange. It's 1977, shouldn't Daniel have already been born by now?

Think about it. When Desmond's mind was skipping in "The Constant," it was going to 1996, and Dan was a physics professor. If Dan wasn't already alive in 1977, he would have been, at most 19 years old. I know he said in the last episode that he was the youngest doctor ever to graduate from Oxford... but come on, that's pushing it.
Yeah. And Desmond said Widmore was funding Faraday's research for ten years before he sent him on the freighter in 2004. So last week's scene at the restaurant, when he had just graduated/got the grant, was in 1994. He was supposed to be 17.
I'm not buying it.

[Tovard Hanso]

I would have said Daniel was younger than Penelope.

But that's just my impression.

Also, I didn't hear that conversation.

I must watch it again.

[deelee]

I didn't hear what they were saying, but either definitely Widmore/Eloise was holding her stomach (or well, womb) and anytime that happens its a dead giveaway the persons pregnant.

So if she is pregnant with Daniel, to they really think we'll believe Charlotte's about 5 years older than Miles and Daniel? Jeremy Davies was like 10 years older that Rebecca Mader. :giggle:

[hahayouredead]

When Richard said about Eloise and Charles that, "Love gets complicated" or something like that, it sounded like to me that maybe they're related, siblings or cousins or something, as well as lovers.

[Giraffe]

If Eloise is pregnant with Daniel in 1977 then by 2004 when he went to island on the freighter he would be 26/27.

In 1996 he would have only been 19 at most so this doesn't tie in with Desmond's flashbacks. (Unless Daniel was an older looking 19yr old, which I don't buy.)

Either Daniel was already born before 1977 or this is a continuity error, as occurred with Charlotte's D.O.B.

Widmore's comment may have been referring to her just having learned she killed her son in a 'future form'.

[taterbot]

Actors lie about their ages, but if IMDB is to be believed:

Sonya Walger was born in 1974, making her 35. 1974 is three years from 1977.

Jeremy Davies was born in 1969, making him 40. 1969 is eight years from 1977.

So the most likely options seem to be:

* Mrs. Hawking is Penny's mother and she's preg with Penny in 1977. This, however, seems unlikely given everything we know so far, altho Pen's mom has been strangely absent from the story.
* Mrs. Hawking and Charles Widmore are Daniel's parents and he was born in 1977 and they're just fudging Faraday/Davies' age
* Mrs. Hawking is pregnant with a third child, neither Penny nor Daniel, that we don't know about.

[mrsha007]

Yeah. And Desmond said Widmore was funding Faraday's research for ten years before he sent him on the freighter in 2004. So last week's scene at the restaurant, when he had just graduated/got the grant, was in 1994. He was supposed to be 17.
I'm not buying it.

well, Dan said he is the YOUNGEST PHD physicist... so yea, buy-able.

[Mojave]

The timing here is kind of strange. It's 1977, shouldn't Daniel have already been born by now?

Think about it. When Desmond's mind was skipping in "The Constant," it was going to 1996, and Dan was a physics professor. If Dan wasn't already alive in 1977, he would have been, at most 19 years old. I know he said in the last episode that he was the youngest doctor ever to graduate from Oxford... but come on, that's pushing it.

Apparently, several teenagers have graduated from Oxford.

Teenage genius gets a first (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_2492000/2492853.stm)

Child prodigy Ruth Lawrence has achieved a starred first in Mathematics at Oxford University.

The 13-year-old is the youngest British person ever to earn a first-class degree and the youngest known graduate of Oxford University.

So, get a Maths (why do they pluralize 'math'?) degree at 13, a PhD 4 years later and become a professor at 19. It's doable.

And 10 years of funding from 1994 to 2004 would have covered his PhD and professorship years.

[Lee2]

Is this the first time we've seen one of the others pregnant and actually has their baby?
Was Daniel the last baby ever born to the others?

[buckeyefan]

Hmmmmmm.

Penny is Widmore's Daughter.
Daniel is supposed to be Eloise's Son.

Could that be "penny" that Eloise is pregant with? If it's Daniel, and Widmore is indeed the "father", that would make Penny and Daniel Brother and Sister (or at least half brother/sister) if Widmore had Penny with another woman?

That's what I thought at first but there is not way Penny is that young. She is at least in her late 30's early 40's. If she was born in 1977-1978 she would have been around 27 in 2004 and she definitely is not in her 20's.

[Expendable]

IMO Penny is born earlier than -77. If "not in your condition" was said and it means Ellie is pregnant, that must be Daniel. If Charles knows about her condition/pregnancy, he could be the father. Richard also has some part in this relationship.

"In your condition" could also mean, she recently gave birth. Did you see any diapers in her tent? ;)

And why was it her tent? Someone noticed a wedding ring in Richard's hand and he seemed upset about Charles and Ellie, so could Ellie have broken up with him because of Charles? And Ellie and Richard already had Daniel? Or more likely, Eloise had to leave Richard, because she had a baby with Charles... hmm... like Richard said, love is complicated.

[Exie]

I'm betting Dan's birthdate was a production error. Didnt the writers pretty much admit that they made the same mistake with Charlotte's birth year?

[Lee2]

With Charlotte they just said the actress 'changed the script' to make it her own birthdate.

[Golden Condor]

Hawking HAS to be Penny's mother! Look how similar the two actresses are (past Hawking, not old one). I wouldn't be surprised if they were sisters or cousins in real life. Seriously had me wondering if Penny's actress was playing Hawking for a bit!

[kooldude3]

Is Widmore Penny's real father? Cos if he is, when did he have her? I mean, it's 1977 now, Penny definately looks older than 27 (in 2004).

We also know that once Widmore left the island, he couldn't come back. This leads to a contradiction, since it seems that Widmore has Penny at least 10 year prior to 1977, but he has managed to come back.


Anyone else think the writers are getting a bit lazy to do the math?

[Expendable]

Is Widmore Penny's real father? Cos if he is, when did he have her? I mean, it's 1977 now, Penny definately looks older than 27 (in 2004).

We also know that once Widmore left the island, he couldn't come back. This leads to a contradiction, since it seems that Widmore has Penny at least 10 year prior to 1977, but he has managed to come back.


Anyone else think the writers are getting a bit lazy to do the math?

It was mentioned in lostpedia that Desmond and Penny met in 1994. She would be only 16-17, if she's born -77. She must be older.

I'm repeating - until proven otherwise - that Charles could have had an affair with an outsider among the Dharma women - in the island, not off island. Although I'm not so sure, how much that rule of not returning binds the Others. Ben told Charles, when they banished him, he left the island frequently.

There could also be something else affecting the math. They've mentioned island has moved earlier and certain people could have relived a few years on the island. So, even if someone was born -77, but sent back N years, they would be N years older when -77 hits again. Hm... I think. :rolleyes:

[nazcat]

I think she is pregnant with jacob! Is Jacob even mentioned in 77?

[quast37]

Actors' ages are very unreliable for determining characters' ages. Sometimes they have an idea for a character who is supposed to be a certain age, but an actor/actress who doesn't line up with that age is nonetheless perfect for the part. When this happens, details are often changed to fit the actor, forgetting (or not knowing) that later plot points will hinge upon the originally planned age.

In the cases of children on the island, they can always say that something in their trip off the island caused them to shift in time. Eloise is pregnant in '77, leaves the island, ends up in the real world in '70 -- it's all fixed.

[ramstoria]

the ages of both daniel and charlotte do not make sense.

miles makes sense, hes 30, i can buy that. but that would mean daniel is either 29 or 30 at most, and was an oxford professor at 19. and charlotte would be ~35. i mean its not a big deal in the scheme of things, its a tv show after all, but it seems like quite an oversight for the lost writers, especially considering their fan base.

[flightless]

well, Dan said he is the YOUNGEST PHD physicist... so yea, buy-able.
I guess. It's a stretch, though.
IMO Penny is born earlier than -77. If "not in your condition" was said and it means Ellie is pregnant, that must be Daniel. If Charles knows about her condition/pregnancy, he could be the father. Richard also has some part in this relationship.

"In your condition" could also mean, she recently gave birth. Did you see any diapers in her tent? ;)
I think if Daniel had already been born, she would've said to Jack and Kate "he said he was my son... but my son is only two months old. How is that possible?" or something.

And why was it her tent? Someone noticed a wedding ring in Richard's hand and he seemed upset about Charles and Ellie, so could Ellie have broken up with him because of Charles? And Ellie and Richard already had Daniel? Or more likely, Eloise had to leave Richard, because she had a baby with Charles... hmm... like Richard said, love is complicated.
I must've missed the thing about the wedding ring. Very curious to see what Richard meant by that comment, though.

Is Widmore Penny's real father? Cos if he is, when did he have her? I mean, it's 1977 now, Penny definately looks older than 27 (in 2004).

We also know that once Widmore left the island, he couldn't come back. This leads to a contradiction, since it seems that Widmore has Penny at least 10 year prior to 1977, but he has managed to come back.
It wasn't a one-time thing. In Dead is Dead, Ben said that Charles left the island repeatedly. It wasn't until he was banished (around 1993, based on Alex's age and it being after the purge) that he was unable to come back.

I think she is pregnant with jacob! Is Jacob even mentioned in 77?
In '77, no, he hasn't been mentioned. But Locke did tell Richard that Jacob sent him back in '54, and Richard took him seriously. If Jacob's there in '54, he's there in '77.

[Djay22]

I've given up trying to figure how old everyone is and when they were born. It gets too confusing.

I agree..
Cmon people.. just enjoy the show for what it is..
if yuo start picking out all these LITTLE tiny things..then the show wont be as good for youse!!
Let it be!

[WaterResistant]

Why does it have to be Daniel or Penny? It's possble to have more than two children, you know :P

[elleesa]

Why does it have to be Daniel or Penny? It's possble to have more than two children, you know :P

Except that this is Lost. Anything ever done/said has a reason behind it.

[Ender4171]

Really you think so? I always thought Dan looked to be in his early thirties at the most. then again I did once have an english professor that literally looked 14 so who knows.

[Flight-815]

The dialog went like this:

Eloise:
I'm taking them to the bomb.

Charles:
What!? Are you crazy? I'm worried about you. Not in your condition.

Eloise:
I'm in this from the beginning. (?)

Charles says this while putting his hand over her stomach.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6529/vlcsnap83584.png

The actress Sonya Wager is currently 34 (born in 1974) and Henry Cusick is 42 (born in 1967). I'd probably place the characters in their beginning-to-mid thirties. Problem is, Desmond and Penny met in 1994. If she was born in 1977 she's meant to be 17 here:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/thumb/2/26/3x17_MeetPenny.jpg/250px-3x17_MeetPenny.jpg

[Koo]

I guessed last week that Ellie was pregnant when she shot Daniel. :w00t: Otherwise she would have tried to prevent the pregnancy. I don't get to say that very often!

With regards to Daniel and the age issue, he could have become a professor at Oxford Uni at that age. Children as young as 12 have gone to Oxford. He was just a very gifted child!

I always took Daniel to be older than Penny. Don't know why. If Penny is older that means Widmore was having it off with an outsider whilst seeing Ellie. That would be out of order!

[nea15]

a 40 year old Jeremy Davies playing a 19 year old college professor is pushing it very far. I'm starting to think that the writers either think that we don't pay attention to stuff like this, take us as stupid, or just don't seem to care about dates. For someone like me, who pays attention to detail like this, it bothers me. I guess that Dan could have graduated young, he was smart.

[Expendable]

Aw, I think Daniel was cute as an 19 y/o graduate. :) I liked that better than using another actor to show the age difference.

[Koo]

a 40 year old Jeremy Davies playing a 19 year old college professor is pushing it very far. I'm starting to think that the writers either think that we don't pay attention to stuff like this, take us as stupid, or just don't seem to care about dates. For someone like me, who pays attention to detail like this, it bothers me. I guess that Dan could have graduated young, he was smart.

This doesn't bother me. It's done a lot in tv and film. I think it kind of worked. If Daniel had gone to Oxford at 12, graduated at 15, completed his Masters at 16, he could easily have got his PhD at 19. All very feasible. I do think they made the right choice in using Jeremy as the 19 year old. I would have been miffed with another actor.

[Shard]

The timing here is kind of strange. It's 1977, shouldn't Daniel have already been born by now?

Think about it. When Desmond's mind was skipping in "The Constant," it was going to 1996, and Dan was a physics professor. If Dan wasn't already alive in 1977, he would have been, at most 19 years old. I know he said in the last episode that he was the youngest doctor ever to graduate from Oxford... but come on, that's pushing it.

Maybe he's Doogie Howser smart? He seemed to be rather gifted as a child.

[dnuofdnatsol]

I highly doubt that Eloise said "I'm in this from the beginning". That dialogue is speculation, while the rest is fact.

Anyone read lips? :)

[thelittlethings]

I agree..
Cmon people.. just enjoy the show for what it is..
if yuo start picking out all these LITTLE tiny things..then the show wont be as good for youse!!
Let it be!

but this is lost, where it's all about the little things! ;)

[Giraffe]

I highly doubt that Eloise said "I'm in this from the beginning". That dialogue is speculation, while the rest is fact.

Anyone read lips? :)

Widmore can be heard saying 'in your condition' though. It's a faint aside but def audible, especially if you watch back and wait for that scene.

[dnuofdnatsol]

Absolutely he said "not in your condition", that's a fact (and why I started this thread). The user flight-815 suggested that Eloise said "I'm in this from the beginning". THAT'S the dialogue that I pointed out as only speculation.

[nea15]

This doesn't bother me. It's done a lot in tv and film. I think it kind of worked. If Daniel had gone to Oxford at 12, graduated at 15, completed his Masters at 16, he could easily have got his PhD at 19. All very feasible. I do think they made the right choice in using Jeremy as the 19 year old. I would have been miffed with another actor.

I guess it wouldn't have made much sense to cast another actor to play him in 1996, however I wonder if they had all this planned out than? His age I mean...whatever I can just think that he is Doogie Howser smart and i'll get over it.

[jahshuwah]

Perhaps Daniel is adopted. The Monk, Brother Campbell, had a picture with himself and Older Eloise. He's pretty old in that episode, so I'm not suggesting he's this child, but maybe he had Daniel before he became a monk and she took him off Campbell's hands.

Just a possibility. I can't recall it being said that Daniel was born on this island, just that it would heal him.

[BultomanZ]

She is probably pregnant with a second baby. Daniel MUST already been born.

I think she is going to loose the baby.

[jahshuwah]

She is probably pregnant with a second baby. Daniel MUST already been born.

I think she is going to loose the baby.

She did go swimming and hold her breath for a long time underwater. Not necessarily a fetus-killer but probably not recommended for pregnant women.

[dnuofdnatsol]

Widmore is responsible for giving John Locke the name Jeremy Benthem, so perhaps he chose the name Faraday for his son (Daniel). A tip of the hat to Michael Faraday (the famous scientist). But then WHY would he need a name change? Of course, Eliose could have married again, to a "Faraday", and Daniel was adopted, etc.

[TheWife]

I agree that it appears that Ellie was pregnant in this episode but I believe even more that it was another red herring to make us assume she was pregnant with Daniel. In the flashback episode showing Daniels upbringing I can't forget Ellie's face when she walked into the room where little Daniel was playing the piano. She was struggling with her emotions upon seeing him and very choked up before she started telling him he would have to give up the piano and start studying to become the genius she knew he would become.

I'm thinking Daniel was living in the US, whereby he gained his American accent, and that neither Ellie or Richard was involved in his early upbringing. I think that scene of Ellie and little Daniel at the piano was just after she learned she had killed her own son and had managed a trip home to see him herself.

I think she also intentionally sent the '06 team back to 1977 to try and save Daniels life. That's why she made the comment to Penny while Desmond was in the hospital that for the first time she didn't know what was going to happen next. I think it was her hope all along that Daniel was going to be saved but she had no idea what the outcome would be.

[Giraffe]

So she metaphorically threw Daniel into the lions' den (encouraged him to go to the island) in the hope he would be saved this time around somehow?

[Koo]

I agree that it appears that Ellie was pregnant in this episode but I believe even more that it was another red herring to make us assume she was pregnant with Daniel. In the flashback episode showing Daniels upbringing I can't forget Ellie's face when she walked into the room where little Daniel was playing the piano. She was struggling with her emotions upon seeing him and very choked up before she started telling him he would have to give up the piano and start studying to become the genius she knew he would become.

I'm thinking Daniel was living in the US, whereby he gained his American accent, and that neither Ellie or Richard was involved in his early upbringing. I think that scene of Ellie and little Daniel at the piano was just after she learned she had killed her own son and had managed a trip home to see him herself.

I see your point. It would be like Lost to put that red herring in there. But who would the child be? That would mean Ellie and Widmore had two children together? What do we know about Penny's mother? My mind keeps coming back to Desmond but that would make his relationship with Penny very dodgy. So I'm not even going there.

[dnuofdnatsol]

Desmond is probably too old to be the child. However, when discussing the whole "age" thing, we must remember that if you spent a few years stuck in a different time... then returned to your original time (without actually reseting the entire timeline), everything would be back to normal but you'd be a few years older.

Desmond, Daniel and Eloise do have something in common....

Eloise and Desmond spent time in various churches :) and apparently a monk "campbell" knows all three of them.

There is still a lot of mystery behind who the parents of Desmond and Penny are (we know Penny's father, but not mother). Also Desmond is supposed to have three brothers if I'm not mistaken.

If Desmond's mother is Eloise, then that would make Daniel his brother, and Penny his sister, or at least half sister depending on who the father was.

[Giraffe]

If Eloise is pregnant with Daniel in 1977 then Charlotte would have been 5-6 years older than him. When we did see them together, there's no way she looked older than Dan.

I believe too the writers meant for us to assume she was pregnant with Daniel although in fact that is not the case.

Daniel's name was written in the dedication her 'older self' would write in the journal. I know this is Lost we're talking about, but don't you think it would be a tad creepy to give her as yet unborn child the same name just because it was in the journal?

Apart from her being gobsmacked at seeing that dedication written in her own handwriting it occurs to me that seeing it actually dedicated to Daniel, the name of a child she's already given birth to, is more likely what convinced her the man she shot is/ was her son and that Jack & Kate are telling the truth.

PS. And perhaps losing the child she is currently pregnant with is what causes the split between her and Widmore.

[flightless]

If Eloise is pregnant with Daniel in 1977 then Charlotte would have been 5-6 years older than him. When we did see them together, there's no way she looked older than Dan.

I believe too the writers meant for us to assume she was pregnant with Daniel although in fact that is not the case.

Daniel's name was written in the dedication her 'older self' would write in the journal. I know this is Lost we're talking about, but don't you think it would be a tad creepy to give her as yet unborn child the same name just because it was in the journal?

Apart from her being gobsmacked at seeing that dedication written in her own handwriting it occurs to me that seeing it actually dedicated to Daniel, the name of a child she's already given birth to, is more likely what convinced her the man she shot is/ was her son and that Jack & Kate are telling the truth.

PS. And perhaps losing the child she is currently pregnant with is what causes the split between her and Widmore.
Perhaps she had already decided on the name Daniel if it was a boy? *shrug*

[Koo]

I'm more and more convinced now that this pregnancy is not Dan and that he's already been born. And that this is somehow going to be linked with the reason why women can't go to their third trimester on the island. How I don't know.

[nea15]

Dan possibly could have been born already. I was waiting for her to say, I have a son named Daniel, but she didn't. Maybe the inscription with his name either made her name her child Daniel, or she already had Daniel and this is what convinced her.

[dancetherapy24]

I wonder if Eloise was pregnant with another child (as had been suggested) or equally Daniel (maybe it was her chosen name for her unborn child) and that when/or if the bomb is set off it unleashes some energy that means women cannot go to their third trimester on the island. Maybe this is why she leaves the island?

I wonder if Eloise and Charles parted when she found out the Charles had another life with a non island woman and a daughter called Penny. Just a thought :)

[iloverichard]

I wonder if Eloise was pregnant with another child (as had been suggested) or equally Daniel (maybe it was her chosen name for her unborn child) and that when/or if the bomb is set off it unleashes some energy that means women cannot go to their third trimester on the island. Maybe this is why she leaves the island?

I wonder if Eloise and Charles parted when she found out the Charles had another life with a non island woman and a daughter called Penny. Just a thought :)
It's interesting to think that if she had not already picked out the name Daniel and that is who she is pregnant with... then Daniel kind of named himself! :shock:

[flip_menex]

It's interesting to think that if she had not already picked out the name Daniel and that is who she is pregnant with... then Daniel kind of named himself! :shock:

Yes, kinda like Miles telling his father to get "himself" off the island.

[jen]

When Richard said about Eloise and Charles that, "Love gets complicated" or something like that, it sounded like to me that maybe they're related, siblings or cousins or something, as well as lovers.

I think he says "love can be complicated" - and i always thought it was because we know the Ellie is the leader in 1977, and we also know that Charles is in a leadership role later because Ben replaces him (tells Ben to kill Alex as a baby).

Ellie doesn't appear in any of those shots, but is still alive and I assume off the island. Perhaps she got banished for helping Jack etc blow up the bomb, maybe after it happened and no one could have babies from then?