Sayid shooting Ben

[DimaG]

Wow, that was cold!:shock:

[JorgeLomeli]

did sayid change the future????

shocking....:shock::shock::shock:

[KAHANA]

Did Sayid just change the future?:eh:

[badfish311]

Well Richard told little Ben that he had to be patient if he wanted to join the others. Maybe he had to wait for Sayid to come and kill him. Maybe you first have to die to become one of the others.

[Vashner]

The Ramifications are gonna be interesting to say the least.

Bravo to ABC I was totally not even expecting that.

For a sec I thought he was gonna shoot Jin.:(

[Shard]

It depends on where the kid got shot, how quickly help arrives etc. Though to be honest I really expected something to stop the gun or sayid. I'm just stunned he was actually able to shoot Ben.

[foxy_loves_me]

Well Richard told little Ben that he had to be patient if he wanted to join the others. Maybe he had to wait for Sayid to come and kill him. Maybe you first have to die to become one of the others.

Ah, good theory! :ponder:

[n00dlejester]

That. Was awesome. I am REALLY curious to see what happens next.

[ValSilph]

I have to admit, I'm pretty happy about the whole Ben-dead concept. Even if he was a kid...still. He had better be dead.:shifty:
I did think at first that Sayid had killed Jin.:shock:

[!GiantConspiracy]

I totally thought Sayid was going to shoot HIMSELF. but BEN!?! :shock:
wow. never saw that coming in a million years. I figure the island will heal Ben though, since it 'needs him' for something later.
But...if Ben really is dead, what will happen to 2007 Ben? Will he just disappear?

[Pistol]

no way Ben is dead, the island will heal him.

[nickv1025]

Most surprising Lost ending in a while.

I'm not sure I trust that the island lets him die...

Whatever Happened, Happened...remember.

[uhhsam]

Well Richard told little Ben that he had to be patient if he wanted to join the others. Maybe he had to wait for Sayid to come and kill him. Maybe you first have to die to become one of the others.

oh wow... they always want the dead bodies. christian died to come back, locke died to come back, now ben's dead and the hostiles just snagged themselves the next leader-of-tomorrow.

i think the result of miniben kicking it is going to be further explanation of richard and how the hostiles do business rather than exploring lost's rules for time travel.

sayid killing ben is how ben joined the hostiles. nice

[bozomymozo]

It depends on where the kid got shot, how quickly help arrives etc. Though to be honest I really expected something to stop the gun or sayid. I'm just stunned he was actually able to shoot Ben.

Just because Sayid shot Ben, does NOT mean Ben dies.

[KAHANA]

I'm never reading spoilers again!:mad:

[scarlet7]

Lucky for Ben, there's a great surgeon on the island.

[j_j_rubin]

Ah, good theory! :ponder:

Well Richard told little Ben that he had to be patient if he wanted to join the others. Maybe he had to wait for Sayid to come and kill him. Maybe you first have to die to become one of the others.

Yes, that *is* a good theory. I think this is where the whole Jacob thing will come in too... as in, Jacob intervenes to save Ben. THat's also what Ben invoked when he shot Locke and left him for dead in that pit. If Jacob brings you back, maybe you become leader of the Others...

[scaryabaddon]

no way Ben is dead, the island will heal him.

True thats a possibility but what is the point if the future just plays out like it did before. There must be a big twist that sends the future in a whole new direction....maybe this was it? I figured he would shoot Ben but I still couldn't believe he did it! If that makes sense....

[drifter909]

no way Ben is dead, the island will heal him.

I really hope this isn't true. Sayid knows how to kill, and that would be a major cop-out by the writers making the story much simpler.

I mean...WOW

[luanee]

Don't forget, we've got a world-class spinal surgeon in the dharma camp now.... surely he can remove a bullet or two?

[n00dlejester]

Upon second thought, back in one of teh older seasons there was a Ben-centric episode which showed him talking to his dad on a hill, drinking a beer, then killing DHARMA. So we know what he does. It's just crazy that this was part of it.

[revieced]

Well Richard told little Ben that he had to be patient if he wanted to join the others. Maybe he had to wait for Sayid to come and kill him. Maybe you first have to die to become one of the others.

sorry , but how is that a good theory....Richard told little Ben to be patient till he grow up more/wait for the right time. And Ben waited and joined the Hostiles later. It has nothing to do with Sayid coming from the future and killing him! Sayid changes the Future. I'm just not sure what happens with Old Ben who's in the Future with Sun...:o

[veela-valoom]

I'm quite confused how this works within a rule. It's clearly planned, not a plot hole. You don't stumble into a WTF moment like that.

[Islandofthought]

Well Richard told little Ben that he had to be patient if he wanted to join the others. Maybe he had to wait for Sayid to come and kill him. Maybe you first have to die to become one of the others.

That is the only thing i can think of too. That would explain why Lock wouldn't have been able to lead as well. Maybe it's just the chosen leaders who have that it has to happen too. Very interesting ending!

[drifter909]

Well Richard told little Ben that he had to be patient if he wanted to join the others. Maybe he had to wait for Sayid to come and kill him. Maybe you first have to die to become one of the others.

Thumbs up for this. Good twist.

[Truthsayer1o1]

I agree. Ben is not dead he simply just got promoted to head of the Others. I believe this is how it must have happend all along. The island heals Ben and Ben like Locke in the future who gets shot and is healed is healed as well and becomes leader of the others. This is the only thing that makes sense even for LOST. I luv it!

[nickv1025]

Even if the island doesn't heal Ben in a mysterious way, people have survived bullet-wounds to the chest/stomach before.

[Misty Rose]

We saw Ben get shot - we did not see Ben die.

[HOLY POOP!!!]

holy balls. first off sayid is a cold hearted psycho who i am never letting near my chickens. secondly holy balls. third, this completely contradicts the theory that time is linear unless the theory that you have to die to become an other is true which it may be because john died then came bak to life so who knos. and i think that if sayid killing ben actually changed the whole timeline of the story then there would have been some cataclysmic event as soon as ben was shot.

[Shard]

Just because Sayid shot Ben, does NOT mean Ben dies.

That's what I'm saying as well. Still it will lead to more interesting developments.

[Wolf's Rain]

If that's the case though about ben dying and coming back as an other, wouldn't michael be with the others right now as well?

[scaryabaddon]

Don't forget, we've got a world-class spinal surgeon in the dharma camp now.... surely he can remove a bullet or two?
Just a little problem...

a) Jack is now a workman, he'd be blowing his cover by becoming the world class surgeon again.

b) He might not want to save him unless he is persuaded by Kate or Juliet.

[revieced]

Don't forget, we've got a world-class spinal surgeon in the dharma camp now.... surely he can remove a bullet or two?


Looked to me like a shot in the heart....good luck with that. And god knows when they re gonna find him or when jin will wake up...it can take hours.

[veela-valoom]

My only doubt about the "he's not dead theory" is that this is Sayid shooting him. Sayid knows how to kill someone. He can kill them in many many ways.

[Dark Dimension]

I totally thought Sayid was going to shoot HIMSELF. but BEN!?! :shock:

It was the old double bluff from my perspective. I thought that he wasn't going to do anything to Ben because we were being lead to think he would and then when he didn't at first I thought instead he was going to try and change Ben. That was the purpose he was talking about.

Maybe that was in his mind but he then changed his mind and decided "You're right I'm a killer" That said remembering the promo had with Sayid swirling around with a gun at the point he attacked Jin I knew that was going to happen.

The real surprise is that it worked and Ben fell. I still thought maybe the gun would jam. So either Sayid is doing exactly what he's supposed to or it's alternate reality time!

[emb531]

sorry , but how is that a good theory....Richard told little Ben to be patient till he grow up more/wait for the right time. And Ben waited and joined the Hostiles later. It has nothing to do with Sayid coming from the future and killing him! Sayid changes the Future. I'm just not sure what happens with Old Ben who's in the Future with Sun...:o

I think this is why the Barracks looked so different in 2007 when Sun and Lapidus went there...as if not inhabitated by the Others at any point...no "inside" man (Ben) to conduct and orchestrate the Purge...

[Slowhand]

Lucky for Ben, there's a great surgeon on the island.

Good point ... does Jack save Ben again, for the first time?!!!

[Jello1996]

:shock: <- That was exactly what my face looked like at the end of that scene!

I agree though that he'll somehow make it. The island won't let anybody die when they have work yet left to do, which Ben clearly does.

[Pistol]

also, I think a clue lies in the BOOK that Ben gave to Sayid.

does anybody have a screenshot???

[benlinus7]

i thought that sayid would shoot ben but when he did i just didnt believe it. Ben cant die... and also hes my favorite character on the show.. if he dies then thewres no point in watching lost

[dmbfan_21]

We saw Ben get shot - we did not see Ben die.

I agree!

[blufftontiger]

Okay, remember early in this episode in the scene with Ben and Sayid where Ben says "you are a killer Sayid"? Ben is telling him that based upon his past experience with him as a child when Sayid shoots him. Everything that is happening now had to happen this way or what we have seen in all the seasons of Lost would not have been.

Ben will survive. He is not dead. Think about when Ben shot Locke. Ben said then he should have known better. The island/Jacob won't let it happen.

[Maximus Phan]

I don't think Ben is dead. According to my TiVo previw for next week Kate tries to save Ben's life after Jack refuses to help.

[Dark Dimension]

My only doubt about the "he's not dead theory" is that this is Sayid shooting him. Sayid knows how to kill someone. He can kill them in many many ways.

By all regular conventions Ben is dead. Sayid is a killer and shot him right through the heart making no mistake. Young Ben IS dead.

What does that that mean?

PARTY! :w00t:

[ArvinSloan]

Nah, Sayid didnt change the future, this was all supposed to happen. It kind of shows you why Adult Ben knew Sayid was a killer. Because he tried to kill him when he was a little kid.

[airy]

The end reminded me of THE TERMINATOR & (trying to) killing John Connor

I Loved how Sayid played it out as if he was sent to take ben back to the others. Now I understand his purpose and why he ignored sawyer.... Genius!

But what happens now? If ben is killed as a kid.... do we have a 'grandfather paradox' - does everything cease to exist?

or does the island save him

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[Wolf's Rain]

I don't think Ben is dead. According to my TiVo previw for next week Kate tries to save Ben's life after Jack refuses to help.

O_O holy crap!

[KAHANA]

We don't KNOW he's dead, though

[kanitab]

I definitely don't think that Ben is dead. The island heals those who are supposed to be important, especially to the hostiles. Locke was healed after ben shot him in the forest, and then was healed again after Ben killed him off the island.
If anything, this could explain why Ben is so awful towards Sayid later --even though after this episode I am kind of confused if it still holds that they aren't changing anything in the future.

[blufftontiger]

Just a little problem...

a) Jack is now a workman, he'd be blowing his cover by becoming the world class surgeon again.

b) He might not want to save him unless he is persuaded by Kate or Juliet.

In the next episode, I heard Kate tries to persuade Jack to save little Ben. See Dark UFO website.

[Dark Dimension]

I don't think Ben is dead. According to my TiVo previw for next week Kate tries to save Ben's life after Jack refuses to help.


Darn TiVo!
Ruins my statement about Sayid.

;)

I am petitioning to call young Ben Linus Gentle Ben.

[6andout]

no way Ben is dead, the island will heal him.

agree... either ben survives or the other guy who said ben couldnt be with the others until he was dead and ressurcted has a point... unfortunately the latter would seem to negate the history we saw of ben in S3 because if he becomes immortal now, how does he become the age he is when he kills his father? if richard is immortal and doesnt age then how could ben be immortal and age? much as i like the time travel theme, it does create immense plotline problems.

edit: that spoiler definitely leaked out.... surprised the mods ain't all over that.

edit 2: not that it matters but Sayid killing Ben didn't surprise me one bit. ben used him to murder his enemies and Sayid knows it. not to mention the genocide.

[veela-valoom]

I think you should cover up your opinion in that spoiler tag, not just the tivo plot. Please, thank you

[airy]

After thinking about it, i doubt he is dead... we have Dr. jack - we have 'The Island' - Locke is back - and this is LOST so anything can happen..... great ending though!

[Islandofthought]

Yes there is no changing the future at all. Everything that happens is going just as it's supposed to. There may be some loophole(Farraday). As for Desmond, he it's different for him because there something about him (like with the flashbacks). But everything's going to plan, and little Ben was shot and he's not going to be saved.

[soulrebelyell]

I don't even care if it's a paradox and Sayid just changed the future, that was too awesome.

[Dharma_Bun]

Wow! I don't want to even bother to guess what will happen. There are some good theories above.

[badfish311]

sorry , but how is that a good theory....Richard told little Ben to be patient till he grow up more/wait for the right time. And Ben waited and joined the Hostiles later. It has nothing to do with Sayid coming from the future and killing him! Sayid changes the Future. I'm just not sure what happens with Old Ben who's in the Future with Sun...:o

Has it been explained yet exactly when Ben joins the others? He could have been working for them for a long time. Informing them of all the stations and everything.

[zakaar]

Well there is a big difference between Locke and Ben and the island being able to heal them. Locke got shot through the Kidney (which wasn't there) so the bullet just passed through him.

Ben was shot in the heart.

So unless Ben doesn't have a heart....

[Misty Rose]

Okay, remember early in this episode in the scene with Ben and Sayid where Ben says "you are a killer Sayid"? Ben is telling him that based upon his past experience with him as a child when Sayid shoots him. Everything that is happening now had to happen this way or what we have seen in all the seasons of Lost would not have been.

Ben will survive. He is not dead. Think about when Ben shot Locke. Ben said then he should have known better. The island/Jacob won't let it happen.

Yes, that fits exactly with what Ben said to Sayid and why he said it. It is another example of Richard giving the compass to Locke and Locke giving it to Richard and Richard visiting Locke at birth and youth.

It's too bad we were never told that Ben had been shot as a youth.

[Maximus Phan]

Well there is a big difference between Locke and Ben and the island being able to heal them. Locke got shot through the Kidney (which wasn't there) so the bullet just passed through him.

Ben was shot in the heart.

So unless Ben doesn't have a heart....

Considering what we know about Ben, that could be possible. ;)

[recon]

also, I think a clue lies in the BOOK that Ben gave to Sayid.

does anybody have a screenshot???

It was a Carlos Castaneda book prolly The Teachings of Don Juan. Castaneda learns how to be a Yaqi sorcerer from Castaneda. I could see why Ben would be fascinated by the book if he read it.

[luanee]

So unless Ben doesn't have a heart....
Well maybe his heart is on the right side of his body instead of the left. I have a friend with a baby with her organs reveresed. She is otherwise perfectly normal.....

[perceptor]

Seriously....for a spoiler u should black out the whole thing. that kinda ruined my excitement based off your opinion alone :(

[dbeck]

wow maybe jack will end up saving Ben yet again?

[veela-valoom]

Ben was shot in the heart.

So unless Ben doesn't have a heart....

HAHAHAHA

This makes me wonder if the Island/Jacob can change the timeline at all. Because to me the island has rejected Ben and he's not taking the break-up very well in the future. Why not just deal with him in the past? Of course that brings up issues of timeline/omnipotence of the island.

[AndFound]

There was a question about the book Ben that gave Sayid. It was by Carlos Castaneda. Cult following in the 70s. Maybe just to make it authentic to the time period, rather than a clue?

[Blu_Butt]

Well Richard told little Ben that he had to be patient if he wanted to join the others. Maybe he had to wait for Sayid to come and kill him. Maybe you first have to die to become one of the others.

This.

Remember during the season finale when Jack and the Losties were hiking up the mountain to the radio tower and came across Ben and Alex who intercepted them? Remember when Jack took Ben into the woods and gave him a beat down, thinking that Ben gave the orders to kill Bernard and Jin back on the beach?

Yes, I have a point, stay with me...

Well, one thing that Ben said stood out then, and if you search my posts, you'll see I mentioned it way back then. Ben said (I'm paraphrasing here... it's been a while lol); "if you make that call, every living person on this island will die".

I KNEW that statement meant something then, and I believe it even more so now. Not quite sure of the hows/whys, but I think we'll find out what that statement means now.

[veela-valoom]

Seriously....for a spoiler u should black out the whole thing. that kinda ruined my excitement based off your opinion alone :(


So glad I'm not alone

DEAR MODS PLEASE BLACK OUT MORE OF SPOILERS THANKS!

[j_j_rubin]

Yes, that fits exactly with what Ben said to Sayid and why he said it. It is another example of Richard giving the compass to Locke and Locke giving it to Richard and Richard visiting Locke at birth and youth.

It's too bad we were never told that Ben had been shot as a youth.

well that would have been neat, but unfortunately the writers for this show never plan that far ahead... guess it might be difficult if you don't know how many seasons you're planning for and all, but yeah, some of these arcs could have been worked out in advance

[Islandofthought]

just because Kate tries to get Jack to save him doesn't mean he agrees or even more, Jack could simply reply, there's no way too.

[James Rieper]

Still waiting for Faraday's "specific ideas" about what can take place in time travel. Faraday changed events himself once, so shooting Ben is just an extreme example of the same behavior.

Anyway, if the characters can push time, time can also push back. Ben can be miraculously saved. A character can go further back in time and save Ben. And on and on . . .

[Spindoll]

Sayid shot Ben but I don’t think he’s dead. He’ll need help BUT I don’t think Jack will want to operate on Ben again. After all he’s been through with this guy, and all that Ben did to him the last time he needed surgical intervention, I bet Jack will happily pick up a broom and whistle while he sweeps

[j_j_rubin]

HAHAHAHA

This makes me wonder if the Island/Jacob can change the timeline at all. Because to me the island has rejected Ben and he's not taking the break-up very well in the future. Why not just deal with him in the past? Of course that brings up issues of timeline/omnipotence of the island.

he had to serve his purpose before ultimately being rejected by jacob--so he was needed only for that specific interval. is my guess.

[lola_lola21]

He can't die...unless he does die and smokey controls his corpse, but that wouldn't explain the fact that he grows up.

This will probably just further facilitate Ben's joining with the others.

Ben proved his loyalty here (though the others don't know it) by sending the burning van and letting lose a guy he THINKS is a hostile.

Perhaps this is the point where Ben proves he is ready.

[Dark Dimension]

Well there is a big difference between Locke and Ben and the island being able to heal them. Locke got shot through the Kidney (which wasn't there) so the bullet just passed through him.

Ben was shot in the heart.

So unless Ben doesn't have a heart....

Maybe he had a fuzzy bunny hidden under his jacket? :D

[corpix]

I just had a thought that may have something to do with this but not sure what exactly.

Isn't Ben the only person there are currently two of on the island (both times)?

[Slenix]

ben can't die. either he's never waking up in the hydra with the ajira survivors (we need to make up a nickname for them), or he's gonna wake up with a horrible nightmare.

this episode's title is what Daniel Faraday said a couple episodes back. "Whatever happened, happened." He was saying that whatever Sawyer, Locke, etc. they do, it won't matter. So does that mean all this is for nothing? But then when Christian showed Sun and Frank the Dharma picture, there they were.

Gotta love Lost. So damn confusing.

[nohaa]

glad he did

[6andout]

We don't KNOW he's dead, though

true... we dk if young ben is in fact dead... i was kind of surprised Sayid didn't pump the whole clip into the young man, like he did when he killed the guy ben told him killed nadia. one shot? please... based on that alone you gotta think he's still alive.

[Vorak]

I don't think Ben is dead.

[navets12]

I just had a thought that may have something to do with this but not sure what exactly.

Isn't Ben the only person there are currently two of on the island (both times)?

wow! never would have thought of that. i like the idea though

[Dark Dimension]

Well, one thing that Ben said stood out then, and if you search my posts, you'll see I mentioned it way back then. Ben said (I'm paraphrasing here... it's been a while lol); "if you make that call, every living person on this island will die".


People did wonder about that rather weird statement at the time.

Of course only living people can die. Dead one's can't.

[Dark Dimension]

I just had a thought that may have something to do with this but not sure what exactly.

Isn't Ben the only person there are currently two of on the island (both times)?

There's Richard.

[Dan-KF]

BEN LIES




something yall need to remember when discussing about why ben did not mention an iraqi who shot him

[Blu_Butt]

People did wonder about that rather weird statement at the time.

Of course only living people can die. Dead one's can't.

Exactly, so why say it? It's a rather redundant statement.. unless it means something significant (like "there are people who are undead/back from the dead/whatever, and they can't die, obviously, but everyone else will").

[Shard]

well that would have been neat, but unfortunately the writers for this show never plan that far ahead... guess it might be difficult if you don't know how many seasons you're planning for and all, but yeah, some of these arcs could have been worked out in advance

Not true, they stated that the placement of Adam and Eve was proof that they did plan things THAT far ahead. Maybe not everything but certain key pieces of information.

[veela-valoom]

Not true, they stated that the placement of Adam and Eve was proof that they did plan things THAT far ahead. Maybe not everything but certain key pieces of information.

I think major points were planned, but between it was kind of like connected the dots.

[mr2b]

The grandfather paradox...I wouldn't put it past the writers. They have already introduced the predestination paradox with regards to Locke/Alpert.

Sure we don't know that Ben is dead, and we won't for probably a month considering it's Lost. But assuming he is, what "happened" didn't "happen."

[218]

Ben is a liar, but uses half truth's a lot as well. For instance the statement from a while back, "I'm the only person who was born on this island" born/reborn same thing

[6andout]

Not true, they stated that the placement of Adam and Eve was proof that they did plan things THAT far ahead. Maybe not everything but certain key pieces of information.

i know this it OT for the thread but i fully believe that when that adam and eve thing is revealed it is going to blow everyone's socks off.

[Shard]

I was just pointing out that they do plan things out, nothing wrong with connecting the dots so long as you have a goal.

[hmamma]

I just had a thought that may have something to do with this but not sure what exactly.

Isn't Ben the only person there are currently two of on the island (both times)?

No. The two different Bens are in different time periods.

[6andout]

This.

Well, one thing that Ben said stood out then, and if you search my posts, you'll see I mentioned it way back then. Ben said (I'm paraphrasing here... it's been a while lol); "if you make that call, every living person on this island will die".


totally dude... i just re-watched that ep and that choice of words stuck out like a sore thumb. friggin linus.... i want him dead but i want it to be adult ben that bites it.

[zakaar]

I'm still thinking along the lines of multiple time lines.

Something always bothered me from a few seasons back. Ben's dead father. The scene where Ben kills his father, he gasses him.

When the losties find the Dharma van with Ben's dead father's body, the skull has a bullet hole in it. Ben never shot his father in the head.

This is probably reaching (really far lol), but is it possible that the Ben that ends up killing Dharma, or his father, is in fact the Ben of the future who somehow gets back to the 70s? Or maybe the Ben of the future kills his father again, but this time shoots him in the head and doesn't gas him.

Or did I just give myself a headache?

[KAHANA]

This is going to be one of those things where we have to wait awhile to get the answer (about if changing the future is possible). I think it is

[ephland]

total vindication. bye bye "whatever happened happened"!!!!

[kimsk]

No. The two different Bens are in different time periods.

but still on the island in 1977 and 2007 if we're considering that there are only 2 time currents running as of now. everyone else is either in 1977 or 2007 not both. just ben. and richard if you think about him being EVERYWHERE at once

[frigideh]

i know this it OT for the thread but i fully believe that when that adam and eve thing is revealed it is going to blow everyone's socks off.

I was just wondering, what episode do they show "Adam and Eve" in and what season, thanks.

[TMoney777]

ben can't die. either he's never waking up in the hydra with the ajira survivors (we need to make up a nickname for them)

Jirios? Ajiris?

[uhhsam]

When the losties find the Dharma van with Ben's dead father's body, the skull has a bullet hole in it.
sure it wasn't just an ear hole?

[Misty Rose]

Well so far we have just seen Ben shot. And probably he will survive. And now Sayid will be added to Ben's sorry A_ _ Father as why he turned out the way he did.

Too bad Sayid did not take pity on Ben the kid, and take him with him into the jungle. They could have lived separate like Danielle did. Now that would have been a change worth making.

[KAHANA]

Well I guess Sayid believes he can change the future

[kimsk]

or is ben like locke/christian/richard--- undead. dead at one time but brought back to life b/c the island has a purpose for them. so little ben dies then is reborn and that's the ben linus we've all come to know and love.

[mr2b]

If Ben dies, what will happen to him in 2007?

[Alex_1702]

It's clear Ben doesn't die.

"Whatever happened happened" is enough for me. Besides, Jin got knocked out as he was talking to Sawyer. Clearly they would go find Jin, see Ben, and help him the best they could.

[Dark Dimension]

I was just wondering, what episode do they show "Adam and Eve" in and what season, thanks.

White Rabbit Season 1 Episode 5.

[John Kreese]

I'd guess that young Ben is dead, smokey will grab and drag the body into the temple and inhabit it as was done with Danielle's team (smokey does seem to use the dead bodies after all), then the new ben (which is meat with smokey inside him) will be the Ben we've known since season 2 (i.e. young Ben's spirit or whatever left the body as Sayid shot him) ... maybe?

[Sacred Knight]

He's going to be saved either conventionally or supernaturally (my guess is if he's saved conventionally it'll be either Juliet or Jack, if he's saved supernaturally, then he's found by Richard). Either way, to me the 2007 scenes with Ben and Sayid made it painfully clear that Ben indeed remembers Sayid. and somehow survives the shooting. This is Ben's revenge. He never could just kill Sayid from the moment he met Sayid in 2004, because he knows he has to live to travel back to 1977 where Ben first meets him, so instead he's breaking him spiritually.

[lordsulldemort]

What if sayid shooting ben and running away causes him to join the others and become 'bad'?

What if being shot (and surviving) causes Ben to stay with the dharma initiative and become 'good'?

What if this seperate reality the dharma initiative wins, and the others/hostiles lose?

What if this seperate reality is in opposites, ying and yang, black and white, good vs evil?


I mean lets look at the facts here in opposites. The losties are all working for the Dharma initative. Sawyer and Juliet are together. Sawyer is the leader instead of Jack, and Jack is doing janitorial work. Sayid is potentially going to go with the others, the dharma iniative will go strong now that Ben wont kill them.

[skiracer721]

Well Richard told little Ben that he had to be patient if he wanted to join the others. Maybe he had to wait for Sayid to come and kill him. Maybe you first have to die to become one of the others.

That's actually interesting. But it can't be. Juliet isn't dead and the captured tail-end survivors aren't dead.

That was definitely totally shocking though. What's going to happen to Ben?

[ephland]

I just went back and watched it. Sayid is clearly NOT rushed, he aims directly, and the bullet hole is squarely at the heart.

[timstre]

i definitely don't think Ben is dead. it seems to me so far they've made it pretty clear that you can't change the future in Lost.
didn't the producers say once that they would never pull a trick like that?

remember what Miss Hawking said: "the universe has a way of course-correcting".

[Sacred Knight]

He's coming back, whether he's currently dead or not. If he's categorically deceased, all this means in my mind is that Richard will have a hand in bringing him back. He's either not dead at all, or he's full-blown recurrected Locke-style.

In fact it could start to shed a little bit of light onto Ben's killing Locke in the first place. If Ben's been resurrected himself, he could know the same thing will happen to Locke.

[zakaar]

i definitely don't think Ben is dead. it seems to me so far they've made it pretty clear that you can't change the future in Lost.
didn't the producers say once that they would never pull a trick like that?

remember what Miss Hawking said: "the universe has a way of course-correcting".

Well it's also possible that what we've seen happen before was not supposed to happen and the "universe" sent the losties back to the 70s to course-correct what went wrong (probably all by Ben).

So what we've seen to date wasn't supposed to happen and now they are there to fix that. e.g. Sayid saying he now knows why he was brought back, to fix what went wrong.

[bobyo]

I just went back and watched it. Sayid is clearly NOT rushed, he aims directly, and the bullet hole is squarely at the heart.


people keep saying this, but does anyone have a screen cap? I got the impression he was shot much lower.



As for it happening, I completely expected Sayid to TRY and kill him. They foreshadowed that the entire episode. The shocker was that something, or someone didn't end up preventing it from happening.

[soulrebelyell]

White Rabbit Season 1 Episode 5.
It's in House of the Rising Sun when Jack brings everyone to the caves and they find Adam and Eve.

[ephland]

i definitely don't think Ben is dead. it seems to me so far they've made it pretty clear that you can't change the future in Lost.
didn't the producers say once that they would never pull a trick like that?

remember what Miss Hawking said: "the universe has a way of course-correcting".

they also said there would be no time travel on the show.

Things change.

[markdlg]

I doubt that Ben is actually dead. He is involved in way too much of the mythology of the show.

I also thought that Sayid would kill himself.

[timstre]

Well it's also possible that what we've seen happen before was not supposed to happen and the "universe" sent the losties back to the 70s to course-correct what went wrong (probably all by Ben).

So what we've seen to date wasn't supposed to happen and now they are there to fix that. e.g. Sayid saying he now knows why he was brought back, to fix what went wrong.

that's an interesting idea.

[ephland]

people keep saying this, but does anyone have a screen cap? I got the impression he was shot much lower.



As for it happening, I completely expect Sayid to TRY and kill him. They foreshadowed that the entire episode. The shocker was that something, or someone didn't end up preventing it from happening.

well, like i said, i just watched it a second time (Tivo'd). it was not much lower. it was the heart. if it's explained away in a following episode as being lower, then they will have cheated us all.

[hbk3500]

Ben is dead, and the purge will never happen. This will lead into a whole new story line for season 6. Life on the island without the purge having happened. Just my theory, we shall see.....;);)

[Sacred Knight]

It was a clean chest wound, that's for sure. Not low.

So my bet is on resurrection. I will have to see a visibly altered future with no Ben in it before I believe that Sayid changed a single thing.

[lordsulldemort]

What if sayid shooting ben and running away causes him to join the others and become 'bad'?

What if being shot (and surviving) causes Ben to stay with the dharma initiative and become 'good'?

What if this seperate reality the dharma initiative wins, and the others/hostiles lose?

What if this seperate reality is in opposites, ying and yang, black and white, good vs evil?


I mean lets look at the facts here in opposites. The losties are all working for the Dharma initative. Sawyer and Juliet are together. Sawyer is the leader instead of Jack, and Jack is doing janitorial work. Sayid is potentially going to go with the others, the dharma iniative will go strong now that Ben wont kill them.

[stillatin]

what if old ben really never was young ben?

[zakaar]

http://www.lost-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80486&stc=1&d=1238038351

[hbk3500]

Ben is dead. Therefore the purge will never take place. A whole new time line will emerge from these precipitating events. Season 6 will show us what takes place on the island without the purge having taken place. Just my theory!

[Spindoll]

Did anyone think that the interaction between Sayid and his brother mirrored Mr. Eko and his brother when they were young?

[nowittyname]

I believe that it was the survivors' purpose to stop the takeover and maintain the truce. I believe that Sayid was right in killing little ben... Although I probably would have went the route of attempting to fix the initial problem. (Making ben's dad see the error of his ways, etc... etc... )

Ben is (hopefully) dead and the future is left to be re-written. Oooh.

[ephland]

http://www.lost-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80486&stc=1&d=1238038351

you know, it's pretty hardcore to show a kid getting shot. even if it was Ben.

[nowittyname]

what if old ben really never was young ben?

We've seen flashbacks of old ben as young ben.

[shred]

you know, it's pretty hardcore to show a kid getting shot. even if it was Ben.
That's what I have been thinking, too.

[KAHANA]

the way he collapsed was so creepy

[shred]

I think the little kid playing Ben is so cute, I guess I can't quite get past that. He does, though, do a good Ben.

[elleesa]

So glad I'm not alone

DEAR MODS PLEASE BLACK OUT MORE OF SPOILERS THANKS!

Taken care of.

[harringstone]

i feel like if he does end up surviving, that this bullet wound or something probably has something to do with him getting that tumor that he gets in the future

[Soul Food]

Did anyone think that the interaction between Sayid and his brother mirrored Mr. Eko and his brother when they were young?

Not making fun or anything but damn if Sayid's "brother" didn't resemble more of a girl? I know his dad was proud at 1st for thinking he/she "choked the chicken" (no pun intended) but where did we actually hear them say brother/sister? Was curious, you know, big girl with light sideburns and all.

[derek1214]

I was expecting him to shoot roger actually.

[vneal85]

What about when ben says that he was born on the island. could it be perhaps he was reBORN on the island???

[Dark Dimension]

I think the little kid playing Ben is so cute, I guess I can't quite get past that. He does, though, do a good Ben.

After all the Charlotte's age thing now I'm even more confused by the producers and their perception of age.

The actor who plays young Ben, Sterling Beaumon is 13. Sayid called him 12. Not a big problem as Sayid could be off a year but Ben said he had been on the island for 4 years already so when he met Richard he's supposed to be only 8 or 9 when the actor was 11 at the time and clearly at the very least 10. So as I said not a huge problem as with Charlotte but unless it really turns out to be important why not just use his ages as 11 and 13 and say it's been 2 years since he met Richard?

Seems to me on a show like this with so much attention to detail it's odd that these weird age things are coming up with Charlotte, Ethan and Ben whereby they look either too old or too young.

[benos]

It's suppose to happen, it already happened, I guess someone is going to save Ben, in the medical staff hatch, so it'll be quite interesting.

[eNdless]

Ben was supposed to be shot, thats why he became the man he is now. And when you would see the chest of older Ben there would be a gunshot wound.

Ben knew all along Said would get on the Plane, get back on the Island and shoot his younger version. Reason is the Island did not let him die, of reasons we dont know yet. As Said said, he knew his purpose when he talked to sawyer in the cell, it was to shoot Ben Linus.

Because of that action, Ben developed the way he is today.

[jlsnightowl]

Maybe Juliet helps save Ben. Way back when Juliet was still working with Ben and the others, Ben had a "thing" for her. One of the women told her that he had feelings for her because she "looked just like her". Maybe she was referring to Juliet in 1977. I had thought she was referring to his little girlfriend or a deceased wife. Maybe not. Maybe it was the woman who saved his life when he was a child.

[Stolen Storm]

Loche had to die in order to come back..
Christain came back to life and play a major (mysterious) roll
Jacob is possibly a dead guy..
Miles can hear dead people
Horrace visited us in a previous episode.

Perhaps Ben has to die to take his full roll as the leader.
Only people that have died, and been brought back to life by the island can lead in some capacity.

Death plays a major part of this show, just not sure how exactly yet

[Sondra]

also, I think a clue lies in the BOOK that Ben gave to Sayid.

does anybody have a screenshot???

It was a Carlos Castaneda book prolly The Teachings of Don Juan. Castaneda learns how to be a Yaqi sorcerer from Castaneda. I could see why Ben would be fascinated by the book if he read it.

I agree that it is Carlos Castaneda and that Ben would be fascinated, but I think the book is "A Seperate Reality."

Here is Amazon's product description: In this book, Castaneda resumes his apprenticeship, determined to go deeper still into don Juan's world, to learn to see beyond the surface realities of life. He continues his dialogue with don Juan, intuitive, wise, demanding, and fierce in his struggle to see and know beyond the vision of ordinary men; and himself, a man of courage and intelligence who submits himself to don Juan's teaching, to enter into another world as a participant rather than an observer. A Separate Reality is a work that is at once the discovery of a hitherto unrecorded body of wisdom and knowledge and the story of a remarkable and shattering personal experience.

The book contains uses of peyote which can cause periods of "introspection."

[ephland]

Ben was supposed to be shot, thats why he became the man he is now. And when you would see the chest of older Ben there would be a gunshot wound.

Ben knew all along Said would get on the Plane, get back on the Island and shoot his younger version. Reason is the Island did not let him die, of reasons we dont know yet. As Said said, he knew his purpose when he talked to sawyer in the cell, it was to shoot Ben Linus.

Because of that action, Ben developed the way he is today.

i'm pretty sure we did see the chest of Ben in Season 2 when Jack worked on the arrow wound. I don't recall a bullet wound.

[Sacred Knight]

I don't think we can look that far back for proof one way or the other anyway, no matter what side of the debate you're trying to back up. At that point, Ben was still a character only slated to be on the show for a couple episodes and that's it. They hadn't worked him into the larger mythology yet. Much as I give the producers credit to having a lot of their direction in place, they weren't that far ahead of the game.

[Dark Dimension]

We can't look that far back for proof one way or the other anyway, no matter what side of the debate you're trying to back up. At that point, Ben was still a character only slated to be on the show for a couple episodes and that's it. They hadn't worked him into the larger mythology yet. Much as I give the producers credit to having a lot of their direction in place, they weren't that far ahead of the game.

That's not what Damon and Carlton say on The Man Behind The Curtain episode commentary. On that they say that the prisoner was always meant to be the Others leader.

Is there a different version of events described elsewhere?

[LL8054]

i don't think ben tells sayid "i know you're a killer" because he remembers sayid trying to kill him as a kid. when ben said that sayid hadn't travelled back in time yet to actually try to kill him.

desmond didn't remember hawthorne telling him to get his mom until hawthorne actually did it.

danielle never remembered jin.

but then again charlotte remembered daniel telling her not to come back before hawthorne actually did it.

i dunno, little bit of inconsistency there.

[bigboss]

i'm pretty sure we did see the chest of Ben in Season 2 when Jack worked on the arrow wound. I don't recall a bullet wound.

no we didn't see his chest or the area sayid shot him in that episode.

[Sacred Knight]

Dark Dimension, I'm not even sure if I'm right anymore as I can't remember the source where I heard it to be honest. Btw, I went and tagged my previous post just to be safe because since I can't remember where I even heard this, it could have been something in an interview which is considered spoiler material. If you could tag what you quoted from me as well to be safe I'd appreciate it. My fault, but I want to be safe.

[survivor]

holy balls. first off sayid is a cold hearted psycho who i am never letting near my chickens. secondly holy balls. third, this completely contradicts the theory that time is linear unless the theory that you have to die to become an other is true which it may be because john died then came bak to life so who knos. and i think that if sayid killing ben actually changed the whole timeline of the story then there would have been some cataclysmic event as soon as ben was shot.

Well.... actually the whole "time is linear-can't change the future" thing is a lot more than just a theory. Is what the show has been saying, on several occasions I might add, since the very beginning of the time- travel element. Ben's not dead, time-line hasn't been changed. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! ;)

[ephland]

Well.... actually the whole "time is linear-can't change the future" thing is a lot more than just a theory. Is what the show has been saying, on several occasions I might add, since the very beginning of the time- travel element. Ben's not dead, time-line hasn't been changed. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! ;)

No, it's just a theory. It's not like you can be an "expert" on time travel.

[Dr.Candle]

Just to point out, the descriptions for the next 2 episodes mention Ben directly

In the next Episode, Kate tries to save Ben
Then in the next one, Ben has to summon the smoke monster to attone for his sins or something so hes clearly not dead

:w00t:

[TridenT_Boy3555]

He lives. The bullet went right through him.

[survivor]

No, it's just a theory. It's not like you can be an "expert" on time travel.

I'm ceirtanly not, but Daniel Faraday IS ;) Anyway.... what I'm trying to say is that the show has made it abundantly clear that is impossible to alter time. They've used the most prominent characters (time-traveling-wise) to state this: Mrs. Hawking, Daniel Faraday, Desmond and Dr. Pierre Chang. Aren't some of these "time-traveling" experts? But to stay on subject: Ben cannot be dead, he's alive and he'll be saved in a way that is still unknown.

[elleesa]

Just to point out, the descriptions for the next 2 episodes mention Ben directly

In the next Episode, Kate tries to save Ben
Then in the next one, Ben has to summon the smoke monster to attone for his sins or something so hes clearly not dead

:w00t:

Please use spoiler tags unless you're in the spoilers section.

[littleone83]

Did anyone think that the interaction between Sayid and his brother mirrored Mr. Eko and his brother when they were young?

Yes, good observation. It is just like Eko stepping in to kill someone (something in this case) because his brother couldn't do it.

What was the point of this scene? We already know Said can kill.

Also, did anyone catch the T=mobile commercial afterwards? The little girl with glasses in it looks just like boy Ben! She says the line "she said you were delicious" or something. :p

[L0ST_ADDICT]

The book was definatly called "seperate reality". Another clue? perhaps to Ben's demise ?

[tankata]

I think we have a Locke Dharma Pit situation to the nth degree.

[mrsha007]

first off, AWESOME!

second, either Ben has to die to come back to life and join the others, as someone mentioned on here, and just like locke is alive a few episodes ago, or like christian is still running around.

OR ben was actually wearing protection and isn't really dead and this is why he treats sayid like shit in the future and calls him a KILLER. Basically reciting Sayid's words, verbatim. if you saw the previews for next week there is no exit wound visible and that looked like, at minimum, a .40 cal pistol.

[Enedlhach]

The book was definatly called "seperate reality". Another clue? perhaps to Ben's demise ?

I think you might have some with the separate reality. Maybe just maybe this 1977 reality is differnt then the one that happened normally and in this reality ben dies.

[BultomanZ]

Sayid *knows* how to kill people. It makes no sense for him to leave young Ben injured. He is by all means dead. (as in John Locke being dead)

But yeah, of course Ben will live thanks to the island's mumbo jumbo.

[SocialAnimal666]

I think Ben had a bullet-proof vest on and was probably told in advance that Sayid would kill him. but thats just me. this is the best quote of the episode "a 12 year old Benjamin Linus just gave me a chicken sandwich, how do you think I'm doing?"

[dontwant2bfound]

i'm surprised that this hasn't really been mentioned...well it has been graced upon but not really lol...lemme try to explain...

charlotte was on the verge of dying, but when the island stopped "skipping" thru time, her body disappeared because in 1974 she was just a little girl, healthy as can be...and she couldn't exist as 2 seperate entities on the island at the same time.

ben is not dead, unfortunately lol! and this is why...he is very much alive on the other island in 2007...the way he speaks to sayid is proof that like desmond his memories have been altered. i don't think he was originally shot as a child but much like desmond all of sudden "remembered" meeting farraday ben had a similar memory once it was clear they'd be back on the island.

to say the very least i'm quite confuddled. and thinking up theories like these only confuses me farther...so i'll stop here :)

[TheIslandToldMe]

first of all, I was expecting it as soon as ben brought him the first sandwich, he had that look in his eyes. and then when he told sawyer he knows why he's there, I knew he was going to do something. I just didn't expect it to be so straight forward. bang.

it might be possible that ben was shot in the original timeline and lived, and that's the reason why he's so cold, being shot by sayid and his bad resentful father. of course when jack is doing surgery on him we see nothing that would indicate a bullet wound from his childhood, so if they do go that route it will be pretty cheap. another scenario would be that ben was shot, lived, and his character is now different than before...but that would change so much that has happened, everything would be far too different for the outcome to be the same as it was and presently is.

[dapeter]

Well this certainly opens up a whole slew of possibilites...

1) Ben lives because the island heals him, with no outside influences. Do we even know if the Dharma folks know about the islands healing powers?

2) Similar to the idea that the island brought Jack there to save him from the spine tumor, it brought Jack back to save him from the gunshot. The irony there, of course, being that the island brought Sayid back to shoot him. Of course it could be reasoned that the island brought Jack to it to save Ben from the tumor, and Ben getting shot is just and unfortunate side effect (you know, side effects of having Jack save you include dizziness, nausea, vomiting, regaining the ability to walk, getting shot in the chest).

3) The island has nothing to do with it and Jack saves Ben. We've seen in the past that Jack has some sort of miraculous power of saving people... maybe like the 'rules' don't apply to Desmond the 'rule' that someone was meant to die (as stated before by Hawking, Abbadon, and Desmond) can be broken by Jack since that rule doesn't seem to apply to people he cares for.

4) Maybe Ben dies and is resurrected like Locke/Christian, but somehow the island hides this happening so Ben can go on living with the Dharma people until the purge.

5) Finally, there's the 'Ben is dead' option, which requires multiple timelines. With the whole multiple timelines thing, the moment the Ajira plane crashed began a whole new timeline. It certainly seems like, without having left the island, Sawyer and folks could continue living there and we'd end up with the 'present' that was the first seasons of the show. But, when Jack/Kate/Hurley/Sayid travelled back in time it started a new timeline from that point. Thanks to the uncertainty of quantum mechanics, they both went back and didn't go back, so both a future with Ben and a future without Ben happen.

The interesting thing about this would be the timelines themselves. If this was true, then you picture each timeline on a string. The string is going along straight ahead, then the Ajira plane crashes. Jack/Kate/Hurley/Sayid travel back in time on the string to the point 1977. At this point, a second string branches from the first string, and it's on this string that Ben dies. Then this string continues on into the future, at some point enough time passes that it's 2007 (Sun/Frank/future Ben time). Sun/Frank/F.Ben are all alive and well on the first string... on the second string Ben is dead. What would make this interesting from a storytelling perspective is to get Sun and Jin back together they would have to travel to a point in time -before- the string branched.

----

All that said, it does seem like the Ben we know and 'love' from the earlier seasons does have the kind of personality and morality one could acquire by being shot while a child. So if this is the event that changes Ben from a somewhat quiet, normal kid into who we see as an adult, obviously he either lives or is now zombie Ben (hmm... how would that work? Henry... Fenry... Benry... Ben... ZomBen?)

[Sacred Knight]

I think Jack and Juliet working together to save Ben would be interesting. There's that quote from The Other Woman where its said that Juliet reminds Ben of someone and that's why he likes her so much, which could actually now make it conceivable that Ben remembers Juliet herself from his past, so maybe she does something to get in his good graces. As for Jack, ever notice that for all the times Jack has beaten Ben to a pulp and threatened him that Ben's never really lashed out at him or tried to get back at him specifically in any way (at least not to my recollection)? And I always found it interesting that Ben was quick to defend Jack in this season opener when the woman at the butcher shop mocked his addictions. And it'd be an interesting parallel if Jack saved Ben's life in two different time periods. Just something I've been thinking about.

[8mets8]

Sayid *knows* how to kill people. It makes no sense for him to leave young Ben injured. He is by all means dead. (as in John Locke being dead)

But yeah, of course Ben will live thanks to the island's mumbo jumbo.

This is my single biggest problem with the way it played out- he's a professional. With so much riding on that kill, he had to make sure. But he fired a single shot and walked away. In terms of the story, there's no way Ben can be dead, island, Jacob, or whatever.

[Sondra]

charlotte was on the verge of dying, but when the island stopped "skipping" thru time, her body disappeared because in 1974 she was just a little girl, healthy as can be...and she couldn't exist as 2 seperate entities on the island at the same time.

I think people can exist as two seperate entities on the island. Remember the episode when everyone was flashing in time and Locke saw the bright light from the hatch? He was at the hatch when the light came on, and he was tromping through the woods with everyone else. Also, Sawyer witnessed Kate delivering Claire's baby right before he flashed again. He was on the island somewhere when that happened as well. I think these are two clear example that people where on the island as two seperate entities.

On another note:

I believe there is only one timeline. I don't think Ben dies, and if he does, he was brought back to life somehow because he is still alive in the future.

[L.O.S.T.E.R]

Anyone seen this SPOILER pic? (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/Scrt8qh4_KI/AAAAAAAAuFk/CI0OJk3Tn_g/s1600-h/ben.jpg)

[chingy-vang]

I just went back and watched it. Sayid is clearly NOT rushed, he aims directly, and the bullet hole is squarely at the heart.

True. If Ben was meant to survive, then why did the producers choose the heart?

[ryanv1978]

i'm surprised that this hasn't really been mentioned...well it has been graced upon but not really lol...lemme try to explain...

charlotte was on the verge of dying, but when the island stopped "skipping" thru time, her body disappeared because in 1974 she was just a little girl, healthy as can be...and she couldn't exist as 2 seperate entities on the island at the same time.

ben is not dead, unfortunately lol! and this is why...he is very much alive on the other island in 2007...the way he speaks to sayid is proof that like desmond his memories have been altered. i don't think he was originally shot as a child but much like desmond all of sudden "remembered" meeting farraday ben had a similar memory once it was clear they'd be back on the island.

to say the very least i'm quite confuddled. and thinking up theories like these only confuses me farther...so i'll stop here :)


I'm following you, but then why not Sun? There isn't a version of her on the island.

[Shoe]

Whatever happened happened. Those are the rules. Ben will live because he is alive in the present.

I hope he does shed some light on whether or not he remembers Sayid from childhood. I think it's hard to forget the face of the man who shot you.

[channelwood]

Regardless of what we think, it is clear Sayid thinks he can change the outcome of history and create a new timeline, and that's what's interesting to me. Of course, he has good reason to wish the previous three years of his life had played out differently, and perhaps that Nadia would not be killed. Then again, they'd never get married and have the best few months of their lives either.

In any case, although I believe in the single-timeline narrative and prefer its delicious possibilities to the (IMO) low-stakes-alterate-timeline-reset-button, I smile at the idea that Sayid, blissfully unaware of the rules of non-paradox time travel can succeed in his efforts while still ignorant. Like Wile E. Coyote standing in mid-air before he realizes it, and then gravity kicks in.

Future scene
Faraday: You realize that you can't change the past, right?
Sayid: As a matter of fact, I did not know that.
Faraday: Well you can't.
(ELSEWHERE) Ben: Suddenly I'm alive!

[Syrinx2112]

Anyone seen this SPOILER pic? (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/Scrt8qh4_KI/AAAAAAAAuFk/CI0OJk3Tn_g/s1600-h/ben.jpg)

Yep.. saw it in the latest LOST Untangled.

Pretty much proves that Ben survives.

[Sacred Knight]

What if the bullet missed the heart and instead is lodged in Ben's spine? Two life saving spinal surgeries, one as a child, one as an adult, both by the same man.

[akataka]

I think the whole "whatever happened happens" theory seems a little too dull for the writers to rest on. Then what would be the point of what we see now when we know the outcome to all of this? The purge, the incident, Ben's life, Dharma, and the Others. I think the writers placed them in that specific year and time period so they could influence the future. I think the existence of Losties being from the future in that time period has already changed something and that's the knowledge of the future. The island needs them for something and I don't think there would be any other reason but to change something that happened but I think this is the only group of people to have the chance of doing that.

Let's say Sayid kills him. The future has changed.

Let's say Jack saves him. The future has changed. If Sayid and Jack weren't there, what two characters would replace that role? The random guy that shot him and the random doctor that saved him? What would have been the reasons he got shot? Would Ben have a random gun wound on his chest that somehow appeared out of nowhere?

Also, another thing to think about is that when Locke sees Ben laying down with the rest of the injured passengers on Ajira, it could have been after young Ben got shot.

Oh, and if young Ben lives, why would he join the Hostiles since he thinks Sayid is one? I think it would cause a huuuge war rather than anything else. I am super curious to what Sayid will do with his life now. He's completely alone on this one.

Also, if you go with the whatever happened happened theory. If young Ben letting Sayid go, getting shot by Sayid, gets saved somehow, tells them about Sayid shoothing him, Dharmas waging war on Hostiles thinking Sayid is with the Hostiles and getting wiped out by the Hostiles could be the alternate conclusion in how they all die like they do by the purge except young Ben didn't directly do it himself.

[Prismo]

Sayid is a professional killer (or was). He went completely out of his way to shoot young Ben - but couldn't finish the job? That's what he did for a living! If Ben lives I think it's a plot hole just in the fact that Sayid targeted someone, had an easy shot, but didn't finish the job.

[doodoofan]

That's the most shocking ending I've seen! Sayid shooting Ben in the heart? Now either Ben will be healed by the island, or the future's been completely changed, and there will be no flight Oceanic 815. I can't wait for next week!

[Mako]

You can always change the situation to what happened it just will not change the end result, who is to say Ben never got shot in 1977? And now he does there is some much needed course correction to fix what Sayid done. Maybe this applies to this situation

[Redrat]

no changing the future.

[tmert]

We will probably see a shot of a shirtless elder Ben with a bullet wound on his chest in the upcoming weeks. I'd be willing to bet you don't see elder Ben at all until the end of next week's episode, or maybe not for a few weeks at all.

I'm sure no one believes he is really dead, but I guess this will lead us to find out more why he is so damn mysterious.

[manonthemoon]

jack will save hem again !!!!

[tansu]

I think there is no way, a pro killer, ex-soldier like Sayid can not kill a boy, shooting from his heart, from 2 meters.
So I mean, if Ben does not die, it is nonsense

[Scythe]

I was slightly surprised but I wasn't shocked - I just thought: "Well, he can't die so... why make a "cliffhanger" out of?" :rolleyes:

[tucker672]

i don't think ben tells sayid "i know you're a killer" because he remembers sayid trying to kill him as a kid. when ben said that sayid hadn't travelled back in time yet to actually try to kill him.

desmond didn't remember faraday telling him to get his mom until faraday actually did it.

danielle never remembered jin.

but then again charlotte remembered daniel telling her not to come back before hawthorne actually did it.

i dunno, little bit of inconsistency there.

There is only one time line. Ben was shot but survived. Danielle didnt remember Jin becuase she only saw him for 5 minutes when she was young and heavily pregnant. Charlotte remembered because daniel had told her when she was about 5, she only remembered because of the circumstances where her life was flashing "before her eyes".

And the reason why Desmond suddenly remembered, becuase ad Faraday said "he is the exception to the rule.

Hope that clears things. :)

[LuckyBeaulac]

I think there is no way, a pro killer, ex-soldier like Sayid can not kill a boy, shooting from his heart, from 2 meters.
So I mean, if Ben does not die, it is nonsense

Yeah that's exaclty what I though! And why didn't he shot him in the head after, just to make sure?

Sorry.. I hate Ben!! (I like the character though) :)

[0marvelous]

The bullet missed his heart,

Jack & Juliet save Ben,

Ben grows up, Purge/Joins the others,



There can only be one .........(Timeline)

[DruidRose421]

I honestly thought Sayid was going to kill himself - never suspected he was actually going to kill childlike Ben! OMG Sayid, what have you done?! How's the Island going to fix this one now??

[Sacred Knight]

I think there is no way, a pro killer, ex-soldier like Sayid can not kill a boy, shooting from his heart, from 2 meters.
So I mean, if Ben does not die, it is nonsense
I think you're looking for too much realism in a fictitious program. Fact is no matter how well-written a show is, at some point some realism is going to be sacrificed in certain areas in the name of the story, be it for purposes of drama, irony, etc. I'm not saying as a fan of television you should resign yourself to leaving your brain at the door, but at the same time with any form of fictitious entertainment I think you have to allow some level of disbelief, and I don't think in this case its asking too much for the sake of dramatic storytelling.

And even if one still refuses to buy it that way, this show in particular already has a built-in excuse to fall on considering the island simply doesn't allow some people to die if it has a use for them.

[bcas9472]

I don't think Ben is dead. According to my TiVo previw for next week Kate tries to save Ben's life after Jack refuses to help.

I call bullshit. Screenshot or gtfo.

[Lyly Ford]

poor sayid, i knew he'll shoot him but the scene was heartbreaking, i mean he did it but you can see he's sad and lost :( and poor ben potter, i'm in love with this cute kid but i think what happened will create the ben we know

[misterzen]

Of course Ben is not dead... He will be ressurected by the Island.
His presence in the future in past episodes prooves it.
And that's why when Oceanic Flight 815 crashes he wants to knows who is on the plane... He's waiting for them beacause he met them in the past.


Also, I think Locke and Ben got ressurected by the Island because their actions are affecting the future or the past.
They are part of a temporal contradiction. If they died when they died it would have create a contradiction in the time continuoum.

[meep]

I call bullshit. Screenshot or gtfo.
That's been a spoiler for weeks. See DarkUFOs blog.

[veela-valoom]

Can we please not discuss what are spoilers and what aren't?

ANYWAYS. I'm pretty certain that Sayid killed Ben. However, I also ascribe to Daniel's theory and noticed the look on Ben's face when he told Sayid he was a killer. He kills Ben - Ben just doesn't stay dead, nasty little bugger that he is.

[QutX]

If Ben survives this, something that is very likely, why would he want to join the hostiles when one of them (Sayid) almost killed him? Ben and everybody else in "Dharmaville" seems to think that the only possibility is Sayid being a Hostile. So unless they find out where Sayid really came from, Ben would have to feel some kind of anger towards the hostiles too?
Ben also heard/saw the conversation between Sayid and Jin, where he must have learned that they know each other. And in the conversation Sayid says that Sawyer let him out, and Jin calls "LaFleur" on the radio.

Just some conflicts I think we have ahead of us!

[zakaar]

Let's say Ben survives, I still don't see how the future isn't changed. Before he wanted to join the Others, now an other comes and tries to kill him. Do you think that he would join the Others after that?

I guess it's possible he (they) eventually find out Sayid isn't an Other.

[Eko Park]

There is no way Sayid killed Ben. If Ben died back in 1977, then he wouldn't have been alive to turn the wheel, which caused the island to start skipping through time, which means Sayid wouldn't have been able to come back to 1977 to shoot young Ben. That is a paradox.

Ben is such a f'ed up guy because of all of the events we see in this episode. His dad beats him, he gets shot by someone he is trying to help. This was a classic Lost episode where the flashbacks directly related to what was happening in the present (well, flashforwards directly related to what was happening in the past). Ben kept telling Sayid, "This is who you are, you are a killer." The reason older Ben knows that is because 30 years ago Sayid tried to kill him.

[Sacred Knight]

Let's say Ben survives, I still don't see how the future isn't changed. Before he wanted to join the Others, now an other comes and tries to kill him. Do you think that he would join the Others after that?

I guess it's possible he (they) eventually find out Sayid isn't an Other.
I'd say that's probable. There's any number of ways they can have Ben find out that Sayid is not an Other.

[Jakuurpa]

The book lil' Ben passed Sayid was entitled, "A Seperate Reality", so is that was this is, somehow? That doesn't jive with the singular timeline that we have been led to believe is what we are in (or that they are in, sometimes I get confused). I haven't gotten the chance to research this book yet, but I figure it has to have some insight on the current action, all of the other books do.

[JPW]

Richard fills Ben in with the fact he never knew any Sayid.... therefore Ben still joins them. That could happen.

Other then that did anyone else CATCH BEN BREATHING right after he fell down.

Seems like he had a bullet proof vest or the island decided to let him live.

Was a shocker ending. I thought he already killed Jin but that wouldn't be right. I had a feeling he would have to shoot Ben.
They said they were going to get rid of a favourite. I'm hoping to god it's Not Sayid. He's one of the cooler ones.

[QutX]

If Ben survives this, something that is very likely, why would he want to join the hostiles when one of them (Sayid) almost killed him? Ben and everybody else in "Dharmaville" seems to think that the only possibility is Sayid being a Hostile. So unless they find out where Sayid really came from, Ben would have to feel some kind of anger towards the hostiles too?
Ben also heard/saw the conversation between Sayid and Jin, where he must have learned that they know each other. And in the conversation Sayid says that Sawyer let him out, and Jin calls "LaFleur" on the radio.

Just some conflicts I think we have ahead of us!

[ephland]

I think there is no way, a pro killer, ex-soldier like Sayid can not kill a boy, shooting from his heart, from 2 meters.
So I mean, if Ben does not die, it is nonsense

Agreed. Ben surviving that would be the most absurd thing I've seen on this show.

[B-man]

It's not sure Ben is dead. even though he got shot pretty close to the heart (if he has one LOL)

btw, it wasn't really a shock to me. when we first heard of time travel and Sayid was working for Ben, the first hints of Sayid killing Ben as a kid could be found on the internet. But still, awsome twist in the show, hopefully the future has been changed :D

[FattyFatFat]

Ben got shot. He didn't die. We have already have been taught by Daniel they can't change the past- what is done is done. If Sayid killed Ben.....it would then be impossible for Sayid to even exist at that point in time b/c (adult)Ben wouldn't have been part of Sayid's life. Also, from adult Ben's conversations w/ Sayid....it makes perfect sense the way Ben talks to Sayid......Ben has always known Sayid shot him as a kid. Everything they are doing in the past....is something they are suppose to do in order to get us to what we saw in prior seasons.

[veela-valoom]

I don't understand why it's either Ben died and Sayid changed the future or Ben didn't die.

I think Ben died. I just don't think he stayed Dead per the Island's magical powers. I mean, this is Lost. There is a smoke-monster living in the jungle. Claire was in an explosion and came out just a little dirty, but then disappeared into the forest & is now hanging out with her dead-daddy in a cabin. Oh and Locke just got resurrected. Death is not final on the Island.

[mrl14]

Ben's shooting simply explains why Old ben was wearing a sling. He was shot in the upper shoulder area. He's not dead. Sayid just assumes he is, doesn't even confirm.

[geep27]

im thinkng lil ben knew the whole time maybee richard told him about sayid or a man in the future blah blah blah. but he's not dead for sure . Ben's going to eventually be the king of richards group or others . This event will make the little bastard seem special to the hostiles. Like locke being a man who couldnt walk before he got to the island. Ya follow?

[ephland]

Ben's shooting simply explains why Old ben was wearing a sling. He was shot in the upper shoulder area. He's not dead. Sayid just assumes he is, doesn't even confirm.

you should go back and watch the show. or just check out the screen cap in this thread. "upper shoulder area"? No, it was the chest.

Ben got shot. He didn't die. We have already have been taught by Daniel they can't change the past- what is done is done. If Sayid killed Ben.....it would then be impossible for Sayid to even exist at that point in time b/c (adult)Ben wouldn't have been part of Sayid's life. Also, from adult Ben's conversations w/ Sayid....it makes perfect sense the way Ben talks to Sayid......Ben has always known Sayid shot him as a kid. Everything they are doing in the past....is something they are suppose to do in order to get us to what we saw in prior seasons.

Then we'd be watching a show called "Loop" instead of "Lost".

[FattyFatFat]

I don't understand why it's either Ben died and Sayid changed the future or Ben didn't die.

I think Ben died. I just don't think he stayed Dead per the Island's magical powers. I mean, this is Lost. There is a smoke-monster living in the jungle. Claire was in an explosion and came out just a little dirty, but then disappeared into the forest & is now hanging out with her dead-daddy in a cabin. Oh and Locke just got resurrected. Death is not final on the Island.

can't compare this to Christian and Locke - they have other scenarios that can apply.

what is happenning this season is just showing us the background of how everything came to be in earlier seasons. Plus, we were specifically told in Lost that what has occured "happened" and they aren't going to be able to alter things. Our Losties had a direct impact on all the people that they met on the island......they didn't know it b/c they hadn't "lived it yet" in their time.....but Ben, Richard, etc. had already met, been shot, etc. by the Losties before they crashed.....the show is comnig together now finally.

[handsintheair]

Most surprising Lost ending in a while.

I'm not sure I trust that the island lets him die...

Whatever Happened, Happened...remember.
Exactly. You can't change the course of events by going back into the past. Faraday has said that over and over and over.

Unless .... Sayid is somehow "special" in the same way as Desmond? I don't know. It's a crazy show, which is why i can't stop watching it from week to week. Will be interesting to see how this new twist pans out in future eps.

And this episode makes me want to run out and buy Castaneda's 'A Separate Reality' asap!!

[buffyfan145]

That was a shocker for me the writers decided to do it. :shock: I had a feeling they might go there with the story, but I was still shocked they did it. More so because of the FCC. Are the basic 4 networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX) allowed to do that??? Show someone shoot a kid??? I think cable can, but I was wondering that last night. Just hope Lost and ABC don't get fined.

[pshkbb]

That's actually interesting. But it can't be. Juliet isn't dead and the captured tail-end survivors aren't dead.

That was definitely totally shocking though. What's going to happen to Ben?

Yes - but you are forgetting that Juliet and the Tailies are NOT Others (or Hostiles whatever) as they are with Ben NOT Richard....

[SKS]

my guess\observations\etc.

When Sayid said to little Ben "Yes I will take you with me" assured me Sayid was going to shoot him.

I believe there is only one timeline, therefore ben cannot die as a little boy. The fact that Sayid put one bullet in him assures me Ben survives the shooting (ala magic bullet that misses vital organs). Either Juliet or Jack or both save him. jack saving him twice, interesting.

dharma knows that sayid escaped, so you know they are all up and about checking the area, not to mention jin was on the radio and gets knocked out. It is extemely plausible that they discover jin and ben in time to save little ben from bleeding to death.

possible spoiler? maybe offtopic
my theory Jack revealing he is a doctor in saving little ben could start the downfall of everything Sawyer had accomplished in dharmaville. they go under house arrest, etc. I am assuming that the losties are not around for the purge, so there must be an inevitable falling out and they escape, maybe tied to "the incident." :confused:

[veela-valoom]

can't compare this to Christian and Locke - they have other scenarios that can apply.


Why can't we compare? The island chose both Christian and Locke. Obviously the island chose Ben to be a leader for a while (though he didn't handle the end of his leadership well) why can't it save/resurrect him. I don't know that we know enough about ANY of these situations to say which applies and which doesn't.

[tansu]

I think you're looking for too much realism in a fictitious program. Fact is no matter how well-written a show is, at some point some realism is going to be sacrificed in certain areas in the name of the story, be it for purposes of drama, irony, etc. I'm not saying as a fan of television you should resign yourself to leaving your brain at the door, but at the same time with any form of fictitious entertainment I think you have to allow some level of disbelief, and I don't think in this case its asking too much for the sake of dramatic storytelling.

And even if one still refuses to buy it that way, this show in particular already has a built-in excuse to fall on considering the island simply doesn't allow some people to die if it has a use for them.
Yes, you can be right generally.
But in this show, we always give characters their value.
About Jack, we always know he fixes. And we always know if even an enemy needs to be fixed, Jack will do it.
Ben, liar and manipulates good. If he asks you something we know surely he has a gain.

Sayid must definitely kill a person from that distance, even without a gun. So if little Ben dies and gets back to life by the island, that is ok.
But if he survives, that is ridiculous

[Jakuurpa]

Well, I think that whenever the writers have had a character make a statement like Faraday did, that they cannot change the past, we are supposed to take that as a rule, or guideline, for understanding the show.

And I don't know if lil' Ben knew that was going to happen b/c Richard told him so, he sure looked pretty surprised to me, but I do have to point out I saw a bullet hole in his shirt but no blood. Of course, that could be b/c they didn't want to get so graphic- I mean they did just shoot a kid for gosh-sakes.

I think that the most likely explanation is that the island knows that it needs Ben for the Purge, which happens about 15 years from that point in time, so it keeps him alive-or reincarnates him like Locke, which is the most, oddly, realistic option. And that isn't far-fetched at all based on what we've seen so far.

[Maximus Phan]

That was a shocker for me the writers decided to do it. :shock: I had a feeling they might go there with the story, but I was still shocked they did it. More so because of the FCC. Are the basic 4 networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX) allowed to do that??? Show someone shoot a kid??? I think cable can, but I was wondering that last night. Just hope Lost and ABC don't get fined.

They shot Alex last season.

It is a pretty hard thing to watch though.

[rbmcp]

It is obvious that Ben is not dead. If Ben was dead, then who would turn the wheel in the future to cause the losties to time travel and end up going back to 1977 in the first place?

Just as when Locke was shot by Ben. The island wouldn't let him die and I think we'll see the same with Ben.

The future was not changed. Ben was shot by Sayid in 1977, no ifs, ands, or buts. That is how it happened and that is how it always happened. I think in the next few episodes, we'll see how the pieces start fitting and how Ben makes his way over to the hostiles.

[veela-valoom]

They shot Alex last season.

It is a pretty hard thing to watch though.

That was harder to watch. Alex had never done anything wrong. We know Ben will become a monster.

[moonly]

old Ben and little Ben cannot be together at the same time,if the little boy still live on the island,old boy cannot go back to the island

[handsintheair]

Well there is a big difference between Locke and Ben and the island being able to heal them. Locke got shot through the Kidney (which wasn't there) so the bullet just passed through him.

Ben was shot in the heart.

So unless Ben doesn't have a heart....
But we already know THAT'S true.:D

[Sacred Knight]

Yes, you can be right generally.
But in this show, we always give characters their value.
About Jack, we always know he fixes. And we always know if even an enemy needs to be fixed, Jack will do it.
Ben, liar and manipulates good. If he asks you something we know surely he has a gain.

Sayid must definitely kill a person from that distance, even without a gun. So if little Ben dies and gets back to life by the island, that is ok.
But if he survives, that is ridiculous
I agree, we know these characters, but who is Sayid? A soldier, absolutely. His specialty however is torture, not marksmanship. Granted the man knows his way around a gun, but I guess I'm not seeing how even being proficient with a weapon makes it a guarantee that you're a definite fatal shot every time.

Besides you can not succeed even when the situation is your forte, its not unheard of. To use your example, Jack fixes things, but people have died under his care before.

[Backpack]

That was harder to watch. Alex had never done anything wrong. We know Ben will become a monster.

Yes and no. It was hard to watch Alex get shot, but it was equally hard for me last night to see Ben get shot. They made a point of showing him as an abused child, and then to see him get shot by Sayid on top of that was really difficult. :blank:

Even though (yes) we all know the individual he'll become. :rolleyes:

[pinktacobox]

Saw this coming a MILE away. Sayid hated Ben for what he made him do.
Little Ben is probably NOT dead.

He's probably going to be seriously injured or in a coma.

[ephland]

Yes, you can be right generally.
But in this show, we always give characters their value.
About Jack, we always know he fixes. And we always know if even an enemy needs to be fixed, Jack will do it.
Ben, liar and manipulates good. If he asks you something we know surely he has a gain.

Sayid must definitely kill a person from that distance, even without a gun. So if little Ben dies and gets back to life by the island, that is ok.
But if he survives, that is ridiculous

The show has made it very difficult to explain how Ben could possibly survive (under non-Island related circumstances).

- The shooter was Sayid, who has been shown murdering more people with a gun than anyone else on the show - never mind the fact that he is a trained soldier. He clearly knows how to handle a gun.

- This episode was based on Sayid and his history of killing.

- He came to the self-realization that he is a killer, by way of dialogue. "You were right, I am a killer."

- He shot Ben, at close range and under no duress. He is shown aiming, and the bullet is shown to enter the chest in the heart region.

Whether or not Ben is ultimately resurrected (such as Christian or Locke) is for another discussion. And if that leads to Ben going on, as he always was, with the knowledge that he was shot by Sayid as a boy, is another discussion.

[quast37]

I just had a thought that may have something to do with this but not sure what exactly.

Isn't Ben the only person there are currently two of on the island (both times)?

Both times aren't "currently." Ben is there in 1977 and years prior, and in 2004, and in 2007/8/whatever it is exactly. Sawyer and the time jumpers are there in 1974-1977 and 2004 (and various other times). The times don't take place at the same time. By definition, different times aren't the same time. We happen to be watching events from 2 different times right now, but they're not happening together.

However, the "present" from losties' perspective seems to be somewhat linked considering the Jack/Kate/Hurley/Sayid jump coinciding with 3 years for Sawyer & crew. The actual times just aren't concurrent.

I just went back and watched it. Sayid is clearly NOT rushed, he aims directly, and the bullet hole is squarely at the heart.

Squarely at the chest. My TV isn't high enough definition to see inside that hole and determine what organs were hit. The heart is not in the same place in all people. For some it's on the left, for some it's on the right, for some it's pretty close to the center. Relative height of the heart isn't constant, either. In most shows I assume a shot to the chest that fells someone like that is a kill shot, but not in this case. I don't think there's a chance he's dead.


An aside not directly related to the above quotes, we're not talking about changing the future, we're talking about changing the past. Everything up until 2007 is the past as far as the show is concerned. Since we've yet to see the future, we don't know whether it's been changed. And Faraday only said you can't change the past because it's already happened. He didn't say you can't change the future. In fact, unless you've been to the future and seen it, you can't really call it "changing" the future, just determining it.

[pinktacobox]

actually this is a BAD theory.
No offense.
But Sayid was not there the first time Ben joined the others. So
he couldn't have been waiting for Sayid.
As for "first you must die to become an other"....interesting idea.

[zakaar]

I know everyone is sticking with "Whatever happened, happened", and that the show must follow that rule, but even Faraday, who is the source of that logic, is questioning that.

After Charlotte dies, he keeps mumbling to himself that he won't talk to her this time. If he was so sure you couldn't change the future, why even bother. Maybe it's his love clouding his judgment, but he is very intent on changing the future, at least for Charlotte.

Also maybe for Desmond, being the "Constant", the time lines don't change when things change for Desmond. That would explain why when Faraday talks with Desmond that another time line isn't split off, but rather the future Desmond is updated with the new information. For everyone else, who are not constants, anything that changes for them creates a new time line.

I'm still thinking that this is another time line and things will be different, whether the universe is fixing what was broken, or things just change.

I think Ben will either eventually die, or at least do things differently this time.

In a multi-universe/time line, Ben can die as a kid and have no impact on the Ben existing in 2007/2008.

[ephland]

Squarely at the chest. My TV isn't high enough definition to see inside that hole and determine what organs were hit.

Sony has done some amazing things with 1080p. :D

[guy]

you know how grown up ben has the crooked smile..hmm..seems like the smile is neruological. in other words, a side effect of being shot at a young age...wozow

[johnny_sack]

True thats a possibility but what is the point if the future just plays out like it did before. There must be a big twist that sends the future in a whole new direction....maybe this was it? I figured he would shoot Ben but I still couldn't believe he did it! If that makes sense....


Umm... but if Ben is dead then that completely invalidates the last 5 seasons of Lost. Everything we watched so far would be different and so you might as well just cancel the whole show.

That's why he can't be dead. So he must either not die from the gunshot or the island heals him or resurrects him or something. We saw Ben in the future. So he obviously didn't die, or we wouldn't have seen him. Remember you CANNOT change the past. Whatever happened, happened.

Interested to see how they make him live though, since obviously he does.

[veela-valoom]

Interested to see how they make him live though, since obviously he does.

I think he's dead, BUT that the island resurrects him. I don't think there will be any miracle of medical science, but rather a miracle in the same sense that Locke is alive. So I'm between the dead and not dead camp. Hanging out in the middle.

[sefira]

ben can't die. either he's never waking up in the hydra with the ajira survivors (we need to make up a nickname for them), or he's gonna wake up with a horrible nightmare.



Why would he wake up in 2008 with this nightmare? Why not 2000? Or 2004? Or anytime, really?

The only reason he would wake on that cot with this memory is because it's convenient for the show.

But, then again, I don't think lil benny dies anyway.

Umm... but if Ben is dead then that completely invalidates the last 5 seasons of Lost. Everything we watched so far would be different and so you might as well just cancel the whole show.

That's why he can't be dead. So he must either not die from the gunshot or the island heals him or resurrects him or something. We saw Ben in the future. So he obviously didn't die, or we wouldn't have seen him. Remember you CANNOT change the past. Whatever happened, happened.

Interested to see how they make him live though, since obviously he does.

Stated perfectly. Regardless of any "in-show" logical deductions, evidence of one timeline or that the future can be changed, etc. (All of which is getting tiresome, BTW.), if Ben dies, then the whole show becomes an "it was all a dream" kind of thing. Without Ben leading the purge and all the other things Ben is responsible for - hell, even a simply butterfly effect of ben dying -- makes everything we've seen on the show moot. If Ben dies, nothing we've watched for the past 5 years happened.

UNLESS we get into multiple timelines. But if they pull that Back to the Future 2 kind of junk, I'll be highly annoyed.

Haha, maybe Sun comes back to 1977 to stop Sayid from killing Ben. After Sayid is caught running through the jungle, we'll go through it again with Sun running through the jungle, and she stops Sayid from killing Ben. She doesn't want to, but stops Sayid from beating up her husband first, thereby stopping Sayid from killing Ben. Then maybe Ben can appear back in 1977 and stop himself from bringing Sayid any sandwiches in the first place or letting Sayid and Sun go, leaving Sayid and Sun stuck in a jail cell, then they both get killed by the Dharma people. Then maybe Locke appears in 1977 to make Ben bring the sandwiches and let Sayid and Sun go, but still stops Sayid from killing Ben......

Time travel stories are such a goofy lark.

[Stubble]

I think Sayid is a villain. Ben is an innocent child abused by his father, who helps him break out of jail and avoid execution. How does Sayid repay him? With a bullet.

And don't tell me that "old Ben" was evil so he was justified in his actions. Young Ben isn't responsible for old Ben's actions, since he hasn't committed them yet. Indeed, if Sayid had a problem with "old Ben" he should try to get back to the 2000s and kill old Ben.

Sayid was great in S1 as the penitent torturer who's good with electronics, but right now I have zero sympathy for him.

[jdhunter21]

I think it's great that (how I view it, anyway) Sayid wanted to save the future, but he ends up making the future what it is by killing a young Ben and having Ben healed by the island and become the leader. The Butterfly Affect notwithstanding, what has happened has happened and there's nothing you can do about it. If you think you're doing something about it by going into the past, it's actually already been done. This was a great episode!

[sefira]

I think Sayid is a villain. Ben is an innocent child abused by his father, who helps him break out of jail and avoid execution. How does Sayid repay him? With a bullet.

And don't tell me that "old Ben" was evil so he was justified in his actions. Young Ben isn't responsible for old Ben's actions, since he hasn't committed them yet. Indeed, if Sayid had a problem with "old Ben" he should try to get back to the 2000s and kill old Ben.

Sayid was great in S1 as the penitent torturer who's good with electronics, but right now I have zero sympathy for him.

So, if you could travel back in time, you wouldn't kill Hitler as a child??

And yes, I did sort of just invoke Godwin's Law. Close the thread. ;-)

[Gantusa]

Sayid didn't change the future. Things in 2007 were how they were because of past actions. As Sayid is in the past, he just helped it being built as we always knew it.

[Soul Food]

I read that Ben is actually dead and that's where Miles comes in next. He tells Miles what happened and all Hell breaks loose with Dharma going after Sayid and the Hostiles.

[Lokomotiv]

I'm a little bit split over the fact that Sayid shot Ben. One one side, I think this event was a fairly significant step in making young Ben into who he is in 2004 (I'm convinced that there's no multiuniverses, so I assume this always happened). If Sayid haden't shot him, if he hadn't suffered yet another trauma in addition to his dad's abuse, it's possible that he never would've joined the Others. I think it's important that Sayid believes he can change the future, too. I mean, I didn't expect him to take Ben under his wing and raise him as his own into a... barberer or something else legal, but still.

[JAC0B]

The book handed to Sayid by young Ben was "seperate reality". you can view the basic premise of this online. After recieving the book and undergoing his interagation, Sayid changes his mind about wanting to just be released and now knows what he must do.
This book deals with "perceiving energy directly as it flows through the universe" while under the influence of psychotropic plants.
So did he have a vision while under the influence that led him to believe he must kill young Ben?

[Gantusa]

The more they try to change the future, the more they will make it as it always was.

It's really interesting that idea. If they had just sat drinking whiskey on a bar all day, nothing would have happened how we know it.

[pMagog]

I'm new to this but as Locke survived getting shot as no kidney(I think,can never remember if actually said outloud or popular rumour). Is it possible ben's organs are other way around a la Dr No?we seen xrays in season 3 but where the limited to the tumour,is it possible they was big clue there...Or will it be that the hired killer missed at point blank range as that will be hard to swallow

I'm still in one time-line group as don't like rules being introduced just to be broken

[The Czar]

I'm still on the single timeline ship. We have no evidence to support that there are multiple timelines. If there are then the last 5 seasons have been for nothing, as others have said. You can't go back in time and do anything that will change whats already happened.

It's the grandfather clause or something like that. Some weird hairy old dude and I had a conversation about time travel like 4 years ago when I was working at Barnes and Noble. You can't go back in time and kill your grandfather because then you would never have been born. Or else your timeline would both exist and not exist. No thank you.

Same thing with Ben. He has to survive or be revived in order for there to even be a LOST. It also makes perfect sense for him to survive because it would make sense to us now that he should know the survivors so well in seasons 2 and 3.

If I were the LOSTies in the past I would just get hammered and high and run around the magical jungle and taunt smokey.

[foxy_loves_me]

I think Jack and Juliet working together to save Ben would be interesting. There's that quote from The Other Woman where its said that Juliet reminds Ben of someone and that's why he likes her so much, which could actually now make it conceivable that Ben remembers Juliet herself from his past, so maybe she does something to get in his good graces. As for Jack, ever notice that for all the times Jack has beaten Ben to a pulp and threatened him that Ben's never really lashed out at him or tried to get back at him specifically in any way (at least not to my recollection)? And I always found it interesting that Ben was quick to defend Jack in this season opener when the woman at the butcher shop mocked his addictions. And it'd be an interesting parallel if Jack saved Ben's life in two different time periods. Just something I've been thinking about.

Very interesting! :nod:

[Matarreyes]

I won´t be discussing any theories here, but will just join the (limited) number of people who are pointing out how sick the whole shoot a 12-years-old defenceless kid business was. I was never much of a Sayid lover, but his choices in this episode were soooo wrong. He´s a sad killer. OK, I get it. He doesn´t want to be freed and is basically trying to commit a suicide by cop - and forcing people who know him to stand by helpleslly and watch. Not the most selfless idea, but I liked it for the implications it had for James. Remember the Sawyer season 1torture scene, when he basically was punishing himself by other´s hands? Now he is forced to be in Jack´s shoes, standing by and watching as his peaceful solutions get rejected by the idiot he´s trying to save. Nice role reversal. As for Sayid, if he wanted to die he could have the decency to run away and hang himself afterwards or something. Wasn´t it obvious his friends would have his blood on their hands if he just kept sitting there?

And after all that trouble, here comes the Ben business! That´s just stretching beyond any self-punishment. And falling short of "save the future" motivation. If Sayid wanted to save the future, he´d have killed the kid the moment he let him out. Instead he watched Ben CRY, for Gods sake, allowed the kid to SAVE him, had a run-into with Jin, got depressed by his violent reaction and kinda decided to go out in a blaze of glory. Sick and sad, if you ask me. It´s a good thing I love Lost for its grayish characters!

[quast37]

actually this is a BAD theory.
No offense.
But Sayid was not there the first time Ben joined the others. So
he couldn't have been waiting for Sayid.
As for "first you must die to become an other"....interesting idea.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Ben joined the others right after the purge, which is way later than the time we're watching. I won't get into the whole "first time" thing, but we didn't see enough of the past to know whether Sayid was there. My position is that if Ben had recounted his entire history while he was captured in 2004, it would have included getting shot by Sayid when he was a boy.

It's helpful to quote the post you're replying to. I can't tell what theory is supposedly BAD.

[bobyo]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Ben joined the others right after the purge, which is way later than the time we're watching. I won't get into the whole "first time" thing, but we didn't see enough of the past to know whether Sayid was there. My position is that if Ben had recounted his entire history while he was captured in 2004, it would have included getting shot by Sayid when he was a boy.

It's helpful to quote the post you're replying to. I can't tell what theory is supposedly BAD.


we know because it didn't happen until just lastnight. People still seem to be not understanding the rules of time travel that Lost has set up.

[Stubble]

So, if you could travel back in time, you wouldn't kill Hitler as a child??

No, and here is why.

If the future is not set, if a person can make decisions which affect the future, then I can't be sure that Hitler would kill millions, since he might decide to do something differently.

If on the other hand the future is set, and I know that Hitler ends up killing millions, then my actions are irrelevant, and even if I try to kill him, he will end up killing millions.

So, if _I_ (as a human) have free will that may change the future, so does _Hitler_ have free will that may also change the future.

Sayid's actions are therefore evil, since he seems to believe that he can exercise his free will to change the future but denies young Ben the opportunity to exercise his own free will to do so.