The Official Ana Lucia Debate/Discuss Thread

[Raven O'Reilly]

This is an official debate thread for Ana Lucia Lovers and Haters to come together and DISCUSS RESPECTFULLY their opposing viewpoints.

If anyone in here cannot behave respecfually towards other members of the LF community, punishment will be delivered. You guys have this thread all to yourselves, so please DO NOT HIJACK OTHER THREADS if you encounter Ana discussion in other threads that may be non-related to the thread topic.

You are certainly allowed to state your opinion elsewhere on the forums if it is part of a discussion in another thread. HOWEVER, please refrain from fighting in those other threads. Keep all your debate in this thread.

Thank you.

- Management

[Leigh]

Cool, so next time wI want to debate....I can say "Hold on....let's take this to the ALDD! I'll meet you there in thirty minutes...no weapons....no friends....bring it."

Sounds lovely to me, I look forward to it....:D

Thanks Raven.

*thumbs up*

[Raven O'Reilly]

LOL That's the idea. You can be all thug and be like "Let's take it outside, yo." ;)

[Scarlett]

Cool, so next time wI want to debate....I can say "Hold on....let's take this to the ALDD! I'll meet you there in thirty minutes...no weapons....no friends....bring it."

Sounds lovely to me, I look forward to it....:D

Thanks Raven.

*thumbs up*
Haha love that. This is a great thread idea! :)

[Leigh]

We agree on a thread to disagree....:D

Anywho....um....gimme a bit and I'll come up with a debate topic....or just wait for someone else to....;)

[*Pauly*]

Sounds like fun :D How about Ana's emotional detachment is it because she lost her baby or do you think she was always like that?

[Dennie_Hebels]

Sounds like fun :D How about Ana's emotional detachment is it because she lost her baby or do you think she was always like that?

I'm hoping to see she was very different before the whole shooting incident occurred. A more likeable person (although I like the character itself).

[Scarlett]

I'm hoping to see she was very different before the whole shooting incident occurred. A more likeable person (although I like the character itself).
I'm sure she was more likeable, I mean her colleagues seemed interested in her personal life (asking about Danny and such). What concerns me is not her previous life but her island behavior...of course the stressful situation made her a lot more aggressive, but IMO there is absolutely no excuse for some of the things she's done.

AFTER Sawyer and the rafties were ruled out as threats, she punched Sawyer because he was mouthing off to her. She then proceeded to step in his bullet wound with her boot. If he had just landed on the island and she viewed him as a threat, I'd be a lot more sympathetic. But they let him out of the pit and even told him they had made a mistake. Yet she treated him like a POW because he was being his usual smartass self?

To me, that shows a huge weakness in her "leadership"--her inability to accept dissention or challenges to her role. She is so focused on being a hardass that she can't tolerate Sawyer's wisecracks because they make her feel threatened.

Yes, Sawyer had a rock in his hand...because she had just pretended to be a prisoner, punched him, stole his gun, and locked him and his friends in a pit. He in no way attempted to hurt her. She saw the rock in his hand and said somethign to the effect of "so what, you're going to throw a rock?" in her toughgirl voice and then punched him. There was absolutely no practical reason for doing that. He was not attacking her or even threatening to. He was holding the rock as his only means of self-defense. He had no idea what she was going to do to him, considering her trickery before. Her sole possible motivation was annoyance that he was daring to stand up for himself.

Again, I understand her actions leading up to the point where she let them out of the pit. Given the situation with Goodwin, who wouldn't be paranoid? But after she let Sawyer and the rafties out of the pit, she and the other tailees were essentially giving them the benefit of the doubt. Jin/Sawyer/Michael did nothing to warrant being treated as prisoners or threats, and Eko had the sense to apologize for the tailees' treatment of that.

But AL was too concerned with furthering her own ego trip to treat them with respect or at least basic human dignity. She didn't have to be friendly and hug them all and bake them cookies. Just show them basic respect--as Libby did when she said "His name is Michael" and Eko did when he apologized to Sawyer and went to help Jin find Michael. Eko is just as much if not more of a leader than AL at that point in the tailees' story, and far more effective because he inspires confidence in the tailees, not just fear. And you don't see him making rash attacks on a wounded, unarmed man.

[celes]

Sounds like fun :D How about Ana's emotional detachment is it because she lost her baby or do you think she was always like that?

I think it's a bit of both. Being a cop does require some emotional detachment from reality when you have to deal with certain cases because emotions can cloud your judgement a bit. When you're stuck in a life-or-death situation, it's best not to run around flailing your arms.

But the loss of her baby did contribute to a large part of the way she is now. I mean, based off her actions, she really loved the idea of having a child. Then she loses it and it's bound to impact her life in a negative way. She did lose something that came from her and to lose that must be really heartbreaking.

Edit: Alas, here we go. :)

AFTER Sawyer and the rafties were ruled out as threats, she punched Sawyer because he was mouthing off to her. She then proceeded to step in his bullet wound with her boot. If he had just landed on the island and she viewed him as a threat, I'd be a lot more sympathetic. But they let him out of the pit and even told him they had made a mistake. Yet she treated him like a POW because he was being his usual smartass self?

To me, that shows a huge weakness in her "leadership"--her inability to accept dissention or challenges to her role. She is so focused on being a hardass that she can't tolerate Sawyer's wisecracks because they make her feel threatened.

She's not focusing on being a hardass per se - it's more of her showing that she is in charge. Sawyer and the others were on her territory if you think about. And I agree that she is paranoid; The tailies' experiences obviously impacted them to the point where they would be cautious of anyone. The fact that three strangers appeared will make them suspicious. Ana, I believe, didn't get rid of her suspicion and still viewed them as a threat because she didn't want to make a mistake (and as the saying goes: better safe than sorry). It isn't a weakness - it's being cautious.


But AL was too concerned with furthering her own ego trip to treat them with respect or at least basic human dignity. She didn't have to be friendly and hug them all and bake them cookies. Just show them basic respect--as Libby did when she said "His name is Michael" and Eko did when he apologized to Sawyer and went to help Jin find Michael. Eko is just as much if not more of a leader than AL at that point in the tailees' story, and far more effective because he inspires confidence in the tailees, not just fear. And you don't see him making rash attacks on a wounded, unarmed man.

I don't understand what people see as AL's "ego" problems. And Eko is a complete opposite of Ana. That's why they balance each other out. His life experiences aren't the same as Ana's (then again, I didn't see his episode so I don't know about his former life). His former life will affect his personality like Ana's did. He just sees things differently as Ana. Eko is the leader type but he doesn't seem like the type to step into that role immediately. I don't tink he really wants to be either - he seems all right with just assisting everyone. So no, you aren't going to see him doing things Ana does.

[*Pauly*]

She must be a pretty angry person if she sets out to kill someone though. I can certainly understand an initial reaction of I want to kill that SOB but she had presumably been planning this for a long time. It shows an act of premeditated murder on her part which is a very serious crime. I don't know why she didn't tell her mother about her baby. I think that was more of a result of her stubbornness than shame.

I think she's a bad egg generally and was before the crash and losing her baby. That's why I am not a fan. Be interesting to hear other points of view though.

[Scarlett]

^As much as I despise, AL, as a woman I don't blame her for killing Jason. At all.

Yes, it was morally wrong. I believe life is sacred and that it's not our place to take life. But as far as Lost goes...I totally understand her actions. I get the idea that she and Danny were having trouble as it was, and she had hope that a baby would bring them back together. Then that bastard shot her, nearly killing her, and she probably found out in the hospital that she had been pregnant. But that bastard had killed her baby, and her hope for the future with Danny.

I'm not condoning murdering anyone who crosses your hopes. But especially since her mother mentioned his extensive rap sheet, she did society a favor. That moment--where she said 'I was pregnant" and shot him, was the ONE time I ever felt sympathy or respect for her character. I completely understand her actions in that one instance.

celes, I get that she was just triyng to be safe rather than sorry, so why not leave Sawyer in the pit? I could understand that. But abusing an injured man for talking "back" to you...give me a break. As I said, I can't see any of the original castaways doing that.

[celes]

celes, I get that she was just triyng to be safe rather than sorry, so why not leave Sawyer in the pit? I could understand that. But abusing an injured man for talking "back" to you...give me a break. As I said, I can't see any of the original castaways doing that.

Well, they aren't the original castaways. The original castaways faced different things than the tailies did. They weren't as paranoid of the others and if they were, they didn't have new people suddenly show up to get them paranoid. So of course you can't see the original castaways doing that. Both parties are quite different and had various reactions based on what they faced on the island.

Yes, she could have left Saywer in the pit but he at least showed some knowledge of their plane crash. Again, she didn't completely get rid of her suspicion of those three and any opportunity to find out info about their situation is worth grabbing.

She did feel threatened from Sawyer, she did noticed his weakness and thus did it to let him know that she wasn't going to take BS from him. Ana felt that she had a duty to protect her party and be suspicious of anything and everything that happened around them. And keep in mind that Sawyer did provoke her to do it. Yes, he didn't know the outcome but the situation was one of those times that Sawyer's attitude bit him back. Nothing against Sawyer; I just think that even though he was wounded, portraying his attitude like he did to Ana didn't help project an injured man.

[juniper]

And keep in mind that Sawyer did provoke her to do it. Yes, he didn't know the outcome but the situation was one of those times that Sawyer's attitude bit him back. Nothing against Sawyer; I just think that even though he was wounded, portraying his attitude like he did to Ana didn't help project an injured man.

Oooooooooooh, have to disagree in a big way on that one. :) I spent a month hospitalized and that was the one time in my life I absolutely don't wish to be held accountable for the things that came out of my mouth. The guy was on the brink of death, in the wilderness, and undoubtedly feverish. She's trained as a cop, so she should know when people are behaving rationally vs. irrationally, and be able to ascertain why. I understand she was paranoid, but she's trained to assess the situation intelligently. That training should have kicked in at some point, IMO.

[Leigh]

AFTER Sawyer and the rafties were ruled out as threats, she punched Sawyer because he was mouthing off to her. She then proceeded to step in his bullet wound with her boot. Yet she treated him like a POW because he was being his usual smartass self?

To me, that shows a huge weakness in her "leadership"--her inability to accept dissention or challenges to her role. She is so focused on being a hardass that she can't tolerate Sawyer's wisecracks because they make her feel threatened.

Yes, Sawyer had a rock in his hand...because she had just pretended to be a prisoner, punched him, stole his gun, and locked him and his friends in a pit. He in no way attempted to hurt her. She saw the rock in his hand and said somethign to the effect of "so what, you're going to throw a rock?" in her toughgirl voice and then punched him. There was absolutely no practical reason for doing that.

Yeah, but he hadn't YET. He was trying to hide the rock....he was likely waiting for the opportune moment to wait till her back was turned then smash her or Eko's head in....look at him in the pit, plotting violence to escape....when he grabbed the rock, that made him no better how you think she was being. In that moment HE knew that SHE was ok and on the plane too, and yet there he stood with that rock ready to strike at the right moment.

She wasn't going to wait for him to try something, and that was very smart.

And juniper, I don't agree...you say that "The guy was on the brink of death, in the wilderness, and undoubtedly feverish." At that point he really wasn't that close to death....he was climbing up trying to get out of the hatch, he was griping and arguing and coniving....to her, he was just a slightly injured problematic jerk looking to kill/hurt her the first opportunity he got....so she made sure he knew his place and she made sure to let him know that she was NOT going to tolerate his crap, and that is a great thing to do in such a high stress extenuating circumstances type of situation.

P.S. This is going really well, yeah we're only like a page in, but still....there's no violent tendencies, profanity, etc. used and that rules....see, maybe we can debate without grr-ness. ;)

[thefilmchick]

And now for something completely different!

LOL That's the idea. You can be all thug and be like "Let's take it outside, yo." ;)

As a disinterested party, I figured I may as well display my thoughts upon reading this particular statement of yours, Raven. I will invest the help of Eric Conveys an Emotion (http://www.emotioneric.com") to do so.

http://www.emotioneric.com/shockandawe.jpg
http://www.emotioneric.com/2cool4u.jpg
http://www.emotioneric.com/youwannafight.jpg
http://www.emotioneric.com/hardcore.jpg

Sorry for hijacking your thread. Couldn't resist. :) I guess I hit the 'violent tendencies' Leigh just spoke of, however, so as penance I'll stick around for a bit and toss in some intelligent comments when my brain works again.

[Leigh]

I guess I hit the 'violent tendencies' Leigh just spoke of, however, so as penance I'll stick around for a bit and toss in some intelligent comments when my brain works again.

Ha. That was greatness, thanks I needed that. :D

[*Pauly*]

Sorry but she had previously punched him in the face and thrown rocks at him. He was only taking that as protection and he never used it so you can't say he was going to smack her over the head with it. It's not fair to prejudge Sawyer's actions and then defend Ana's.

I really think we should try to stay on some kindof topic though it seems to be a free for all is Ana good or bad sorta thing.

[juniper]

Yeah, we're going to agree to disagree, Leigh. I'd see a guy stumbling out of the ocean bleeding out of a bullet wound to the shoulder and think, well, he's obviosly going to be going down soon, so I wouldn't expect him to sit down to tea. I'd expect him to behave Sawyerishly even if he were someone else. I honestly think I might have. Under those circumstances, with no hospital to speak of, that's not a slight injury. I think part of what upsets people has to do with the fact that she stepped down on the wound. If it had become infected, minus Jack, that could mean the difference between life and death, not simply putting him in his place. I don't think her behavior was intelligent unless it was solely herself she was looking out for, but I suppose that's the point.

[celes]

Oooooooooooh, have to disagree in a big way on that one. :) I spent a month hospitalized and that was the one time in my life I absolutely don't wish to be held accountable for the things that came out of my mouth. The guy was on the brink of death, in the wilderness, and undoubtedly feverish. She's trained as a cop, so she should know when people are behaving rationally vs. irrationally, and be able to ascertain why. I understand she was paranoid, but she's trained to assess the situation intelligently. That training should have kicked in at some point, IMO.

Just a question for clarification: Are you saying that Sawyer, in no way, had a part in Ana Lucia's actions towards him?

I disagree with what I believe you're saying; you are in control of what you say and therefore, you should accept the consequences of those words. He might have been feverish but I saw no difference in his actions.

I see what you're saying about how Ana should be able to assess the situation and all but police officers aren't trained to be psychologists. That's not really their main job. They can't stop and think during a situation, "Oh, he's talking back. I think this is a sign of loss of affection..." or whatever. Nor is Ana trained to be a doctor. If I saw a guy who obviously has enough energy to make remarks, then I'm not going to treat him like a baby or anything.

[juniper]

I like the debate thread.

No, I believe if he'd behaved submissively, she wouldn't have behaved that way. I simply don't see that as an excuse.

I do agree with you about accepting consequences, celes. However, if you're feverish, it often causes deliriousness, so you don't know what you're saying and you aren't in control and behave irrationally. That's my point. It's often confused with amnesia, but it's only from serious illness or injury, and it impairs thinking. (For instance, I told someone if he didn't jump out the third story window, I'd push him. I'm horrified by that now that I'm well, so I hope you don't think that of me.) Ill people don't always behave as they do on Hallmark television movies. Sawyer is a television character who often behaves irratically. She doesn't know that though. I'm not sure that's what the writers intended, but what I would gather from my personal experience was that he wasn't necessarily fit. I'm saying she had him in a hole, part of the reason for that must have been to assess their circumstances. (I'm exhausted, so I hope all this still sounds coherent in the morning! :o )

I'm not talking about genius, I'm talking about simple common sense. A guy's been shot, you're on a deserted island. A common injury or illness can lead to death without medical aid. She'd know that, because everyone knows that. No, you don't baby him, you treat him like a human being. Go ahead and be wary and cautious, but don't make impulsive mistakes that lead to innocent deaths.

I do get that she's paranoid and afraid, but in my opinion, some sense of humanity should have sunk in long before it got to that point. That's all. (And goodnight, everyone.)

[Razor]

Yeah, we're going to agree to disagree, Leigh. I'd see a guy stumbling out of the ocean bleeding out of a bullet wound to the shoulder and think, well, he's obviosly going to be going down soon, so I wouldn't expect him to sit down to tea. I'd expect him to behave Sawyerishly even if he were someone else. I honestly think I might have. Under those circumstances, with no hospital to speak of, that's not a slight injury. I think part of what upsets people has to do with the fact that she stepped down on the wound. If it had become infected, minus Jack, that could mean the difference between life and death, not simply putting him in his place. I don't think her behavior was intelligent unless it was solely herself she was looking out for, but I suppose that's the point.
I don't think the pro-Ana people (I'm definitely more "pro", but there are aspects to her character which I do not like - which I'm sure you'll see in other debates;):o) should be quick in any concession regarding Ana's shoe being the possible cause of the infection, particularly since in a previously post it was contended that he was already "... on the brink of death, in the wilderness, and undoubtedly feverish".:) The gun shot alone is much more likely to have been the culprit (not to mention prior bacteria from Sawyer's fingers, his shirt, the beach, Eko or other Tailees hands, being dragged across a jungle floor, and thrown into a dirt pit ...).

I "googled" this:

Sepsis is more likely in people who:
Have been admitted to the hospital with a serious disease
Are very young or old
Have a compromised (weak) immune system
Have had a wound or injury, such as a surgical wound, a burn, or a gunshot injury
Have an IV (intravenous) line for infusion of medications ("IV drip")
Have a catheter to drain the bladder
Are addicted to alcohol or drugsNowhere does it mention Ana's boot!:D *Hey, there's no bad info on the internet, right?*:rolleyes:

ASIDE: I even found a *very rare case* of "late infection" 6 or 7 years after the initial gunshot wound.:eek:

Additionally, another medical article indicated that:


"With a penetrating wound from a gun shot injury, knife injuries etc. bacteria from the skin or from the penetrating object get into the wound and multiply within a short time.
There is a limited time of 4 to 6 hours that the physician has to clean up and close such a wound."

Therefor, if the writers are being true to science, it's highly unlikely that Ana stomping on Sawyer caused the infection.

*If someone else cares enough to look up the time frame for the effects of such an infection to manifest in behavior, it might prove interesting. However, I honestly couldn't discern any change to Sawyer's normal "pain-in-the-ass" behavior - aside from the occasional wincing/grimacing in pain ... and THAT is not a symptom (yes, I have had infections causing delerium *and no, I'm not still in it:D).

[mge1979]

^^I don't think i could argue with that one....

this goes out to the members of the Anti Ana Lucia Brigade: what do you think should Ana do or would've done that would convince you that she is not a nasty person that you think she is now? (and please don't answer that she should get killed and leave the show or something down that line...just feed my curiosity a bit please :))

[celes]

I do agree with you about accepting consequences, celes. However, if you're feverish, it often causes deliriousness, so you don't know what you're saying and you aren't in control and behave irrationally. That's my point. It's often confused with amnesia, but it's only from serious illness or injury, and it impairs thinking. (For instance, I told someone if he didn't jump out the third story window, I'd push him. I'm horrified by that now that I'm well, so I hope you don't think that of me.) Ill people don't always behave as they do on Hallmark television movies. Sawyer is a television character who often behaves irratically. She doesn't know that though. I'm not sure that's what the writers intended, but what I would gather from my personal experience was that he wasn't necessarily fit. I'm saying she had him in a hole, part of the reason for that must have been to assess their circumstances. (I'm exhausted, so I hope all this still sounds coherent in the morning! :o )

You are right, Sawyer always acts a bit irrationally. But from what I remember of the episode, he wasn't delirious or showed signs of it.

Definition: A temporary state of mental confusion and fluctuating consciousness resulting from high fever, intoxication, shock, or other causes. It is characterized by anxiety, disorientation, hallucinations, delusions, and incoherent speech.

I'm not saying Sawyer wasn't feverish but I'm saying that he was grounded enough to know what was going on.

Razor, I have to applaud you for that one. :clap:

[*Pauly*]

^^I don't think i could argue with that one....

this goes out to the members of the Anti Ana Lucia Brigade: what do you think should Ana do or would've done that would convince you that she is not a nasty person that you think she is now? (and please don't answer that she should get killed and leave the show or something down that line...just feed my curiosity a bit please :))

Unfortunately it is not what she will do or has done even it is how she has come across generally on the show in terms of her character, mannerisms and general abrasiveness that annoys me the most. For example she always seems to act aggressively with people if they question her, her eyes go really wide and she flips out like wtf someone question me? She treats her own people with little respect. I know you might say she was under stress but I think remaining calm under pressure and not taking it out on people around you is a something that everyone else on the tailies side has seemed to manage okay. So yeah I think a personality transplant is in order :p

I also find her something of a cartoon figure, very unbelivable. The Rambo types that take on whole armies with a machine gun or in Ana's case a full grown man who is physically her superior. Just look at the guys frame and don't forget he had military training in the peace corps aswell so you can't say she was his better cause of her cop training.

And as for her stepping on Sawyer's wound regardless of it causing infection which it might have. It most certainly caused him pain and it was a horrible thing to do to someone.

[juniper]

Razor, as long as a wound is open, it risks infection, that's the time period (sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up). Foreign bacteria would be on her boot as well, which is why I'm not loving the idea. (Loved the part about her boot not being listed on the internet, though, that made me laugh) I'm assuming, if the guy got two fingers in there, (Also funny - can anyone explain how they thought that wouldn't be ridiculous? Oh, yeah, television. :p ) it's not a closed wound.

yes, I have had infections causing delerium *and no, I'm not still in it

LOL, no, like I said, I know. No one who's delirious could write a coherent lengthy post to save their life. You're doing fine, hon. :cool:

this goes out to the members of the Anti Ana Lucia Brigade: what do you think should Ana do or would've done that would convince you that she is not a nasty person that you think she is now? (and please don't answer that she should get killed and leave the show or something down that line...just feed my curiosity a bit please )

That's where we always run into trouble, and I know her fans don't understand. I don't think the producers expected it either. Since this thread is friendly, though, I'll attempt to explain accordingly. You're not going to like it, though: I don't think she can do anything.

You're seeing some of us saying things like she's two-dimensional, cartoonish, an action-figure, etc. You're saying she has strong presence. We're both right. The thing is people are inherently different, and wouldn't all react similarly in the exact same circumstances.

Also, some people (and actors) are 98 percent on the surface, if that makes sense. You know where they stand, they get their point across loud and clear, without hesitation, whether it's a mission to save something or it's simply in-your-face attitude, nothing more or less. (As actors, they're usually typecast because of it.) If whatever is projected meets your expectations, great, you can't get enough; if it doesn't, it's going to anger you whenever it gets screen time, (especially if it's this show ;) ). Politicians are that way often, very divisive. During campaigns you'll see photos of them kissing babies, and you'll think how could anyone not love someone who obviously loves children so much and someone else will think the poor child may as well be a political tool to that person. In reality, this is merely a fictional character and that's merely a campaign. Either way, there isn't much of an enigma there, yet what's painfully obvious to either is really different interpretation based on what the character conveys to them personally.

Others are equally deep and perplexive, you don't know where they're coming from, how they'll react, but there's enough apparent complex thought and emotion, so you consider it accordingly and adjust. They're more like human puzzles. Neither type is inherently wrong and they both have positive aspects, but in this case, I think it's why Jin, Sawyer, Shannon, and company never received this type of strong animosity. Anger and irritation, always, yet they added that something below the surface that wasn't in the script. You sense there's a motive for their madness, and unwillingly empathize. They acted out of the latter category. There was more nuance and room for subtle interpretation, so everyone could be happy if they chose to do so. And they did. :)

Sorry for the length, but does that help? :confused:

[Razor]

I also find her something of a cartoon figure, very unbelivable. The Rambo types that take on whole armies with a machine gun or in Ana's case a full grown man who is physically her superior. Just look at the guys frame and don't forget he had military training in the peace corps aswell so you can't say she was his better cause of her cop training.
Three points of contention here:
Granted it's only my perception, but it seemed to me, that Goodwin was winning that encounter and only a fluke/lucky break for Ana resulted in Goodwin lunging and impaling himself. Therefor I will concede, given my stated view of how things transpired, that her police training was of little consequence to her survival.
Was he truly in the Peace Corp, or was that only his cover story?
I'm unable to uncover any information as to military/combat training received by Peace Corp. volunteers. The only information regarding the Peace Corp. and the military I can find is that "service in the Peace Corps as a volunteer shall not in any way exempt such volunteer from the performance of any obligations or duties under the provisions of the Universal Military Training and Service Act [50 App. U.S.C. 451 et seq.]."
Points #1 & 2 all but negate #3 for me, however, if you have any information regarding combat training for Peace Corp. volunteers I would certainly be appreciative in seeing it - given the futility of my research efforts.

And as for her stepping on Sawyer's wound regardless of it causing infection which it might have. It most certainly caused him pain and it was a horrible thing to do to someone. Yes, it caused him pain. But in all honesty, I would have done the same thing - or something reasonably close if I had been in Ana's predicament. I viewed The Tailees not only as being "at war" with The Others, but comparable to a platoon caught behind enemy lines. It's difficult to imagine them being in a more defensive position: attacked by an unknown enemy; on foreign soil; having depleted forces; without supplies; and with the (correct) suspicion of infiltration. If one views it in this light (i.e. in a military context - and one of desperation as well), the actions are more understandable (even if some may not agree with the methods as they are used in real life). While Ana's police training may not have helped her against Goodwin, it definitely appears (to me) to have guided her in her leadership technique. For even under the best of circumstances, a leader would never allow anyone in their camp (regardless of their being enlisted, drafted, or a conscript) to openly display any measure of disrespect, or insubordination (much less drawing a weapon against them) and let it go unpunished.

"The penalty for insubordination in military organizations can range from dishonarable discharge, incarceration for a term of years, to capital punishment. The penalty varies depending on the type of infraction, the circumstances, and the culture of the military force. In modern Western armed forces, the penalty tends to be dishonourable discharge and/or a prison term. In other circumstances such as the German or Russian armies on the Eastern Front during World War II, the penalty tended to be an immediate execution."

Given the inability to exact either of the first two of those penalties ... "pain" to the shoulder seems a somewhat tame punishment to me.;)



I realize everyone else has already said this (but I want my turn too), thank you Raven for establishing this space for the civil discourse and analysis of opposing viewpoints. More importantly, thank you posters for adhering to those ideals.

[mge1979]

Razor, as long as a wound is open, it risks infection, that's the time period (sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up). Foreign bacteria would be on her boot as well, which is why I'm not loving the idea. (Loved the part about her boot not being listed on the internet, though, that made me laugh) I'm assuming, if the guy got two fingers in there, (Also funny - can anyone explain how they thought that wouldn't be ridiculous? Oh, yeah, television. :p ) it's not a closed wound.



LOL, no, like I said, I know. No one who's delirious could write a coherent lengthy post to save their life. You're doing fine, hon. :cool:



That's where we always run into trouble, and I know her fans don't understand. I don't think the producers expected it either. Since this thread is friendly, though, I'll attempt to explain accordingly. You're not going to like it, though: I don't think she can do anything.

You're seeing some of us saying things like she's two-dimensional, cartoonish, an action-figure, etc. You're saying she has strong presence. We're both right. The thing is people are inherently different, and wouldn't all react similarly in the exact same circumstances.

Also, some people (and actors) are 98 percent on the surface, if that makes sense. You know where they stand, they get their point across loud and clear, without hesitation, whether it's a mission to save something or it's simply in-your-face attitude, nothing more or less. (As actors, they're usually typecast because of it.) If whatever is projected meets your expectations, great, you can't get enough; if it doesn't, it's going to anger you whenever it gets screen time, (especially if it's this show ;) ). Politicians are that way often, very divisive. During campaigns you'll see photos of them kissing babies, and you'll think how could anyone not love someone who obviously loves children so much and someone else will think the poor child may as well be a political tool to that person. In reality, this is merely a fictional character and that's merely a campaign. Either way, there isn't much of an enigma there, yet what's painfully obvious to either is really different interpretation based on what the character conveys to them personally.

Others are equally deep and perplexive, you don't know where they're coming from, how they'll react, but there's enough apparent complex thought and emotion, so you consider it accordingly and adjust. They're more like human puzzles. Neither type is inherently wrong and they both have positive aspects, but in this case, I think it's why Jin, Sawyer, Shannon, and company never received this type of strong animosity. Anger and irritation, always, yet they added that something below the surface that wasn't in the script. You sense there's a motive for their madness, and unwillingly empathize. They acted out of the latter category. There was more nuance and room for subtle interpretation, so everyone could be happy if they chose to do so. And they did. :)

Sorry for the length, but does that help? :confused:


I do agree with you on the politicians' part... but what you're trying to tell me is that Ana Lucia is beyond redemption?

p.s. i'll make my argument longer next time. i really need to get my ass to work :D

[*Pauly*]

Well it was more the reason she went out into the jungle with him on her own in the first place. She thinks she can deal with everything herself. The image of her digging the pit also reminded me of her as this butch action figure who can dig such a deep pit on her own.

As for the fight itself Goodwin did manage to overpower her at the start but she managed herself pretty well. For me Goodwin doesn't fight back enough. Also even if he wasn't in the peace corps he is an other and has probably been trained in some form of combat you would have thought. Look at Ethan he was a monster of a man. Goodwin looks a bit of a pussy compared to Ethan.

[thefilmchick]

Goodwin looks a bit of a pussy compared to Ethan.

Your Best Friends Forever banner did not give me that impression! :D

As far as Ana-Lucia stepping in Sawyer's wound, I am of two minds on that. I obviously don't like it, as it was a rather cruel thing to do, but it was justified. Here is this guy who has been needling her since he regained consciousness from being whacked in the head with Eko's stick.

Jin, Michael, and Sawyer clearly do not feel there's as much of a threat as A-L and her gang know for a fact exists; Sawyer is trying his damnedest to screw with her. So she had to do something to ensure that he wouldn't be a threat to her, and causing him intense physical pain was both the quickest way to do it and the way that ensured that he would listen to what she said.

It may have been cruel, and it may not shine the best light on Ana-Lucia's character, but in her position, what she did is understandable, if not quite justifiable. And that's to say nothing of the Tailies' suspicion that perhaps the trio are Others or anything else under the sun, either.

[juniper]

Thank you. :) Your explanation is much more clear and succinct, mge1979. I can never manage that even though I try. Yes, that's basically what I'm saying. Again, it's not true for all viewers, just as it isn't true for swing voters, but that's why the intensity, unless I'm mistaken.

[*Pauly*]

Well I am not saying I am not a fan of Goodwin I just think he could have fought back better ;)

[Leigh]

Yeah well she got the upper hand on him. It was good though b/c yes she is small and yes he likely is much stronger, but she managed to get a good distracting side hit in to get him off of her then used his own strength and fury against him (when she allowed the two of them to fly over the edge of the land)....she didn't beat him in some punching match....if that had happened, then I could understand how people would call it unrealistic....though personally I think that would be cool b/c this IS fiction, but yeah....

....I thought the fight scene was quite realistic....it's not about size and strength, it's about skill and quickness and resourcefulness....Ana is quite physically strong compared to most females, but even still when fighting someone bigger and stronger she won b/c of her quick thinking and unrelenting spirit of not being willing to go down easily. That's cool, and not unrealistic at all. I've seen tiny dudes take out big ole mo fos b/c they just go on the crazy offensive and the big guy can't do anything to stop it....I'm telling you, you take someone by suprise with one hell of a punch, no matter what your size nor theirs, and you've got it made.

[*Pauly*]

But why go out there in the first place? I really don't see it as a clever move by Ana. Maybe if she had been defending herself then it wouldn't look so bad to me but she went out there on her own to fight him. I guess she wanted to find out where the kids were but she should have questioned him with Eko's help.

[Leigh]

I don't know, I'm thinking though that she was confident enough that she could take him (whether true or not), so in my mind they had her go out there to seperate him from the group and get the truth away from everyone else....so to not expose them to that danger/reality. It was quite selfless, though I will admit almost a bit foolish b/c it could have seriously backfired....but it didn't so to me it was a very brave, however risky thing to do. :)

[Makeshift Python]

Finally we can kill off the "Hate Evil Ana-Lucia" thread and have a more mature title so we don't get arrogant people who never read posts and go "You guys are lame".

Anyways, so far no Ana. From what I read she'll be around again and things heat up with her and Jack? Okay, lame. I don't see how they work, but then again I don't think anyone could see how Shannon and Sayid work either until they actually started liking eachother.

And now it's obvious Kate is digging Sawyer lately, though who knows if they'll ever be.

[mge1979]

But why go out there in the first place? I really don't see it as a clever move by Ana. Maybe if she had been defending herself then it wouldn't look so bad to me but she went out there on her own to fight him. I guess she wanted to find out where the kids were but she should have questioned him with Eko's help.

If my memory serves me right, PolarBear, it was Goodwin who suggested that they should go someplace higher to get a better radio signal... None of us knows what's going on inside Ana's head the moment she decided to join Goodwin so i cannot conclude that she went with him to interrogate him or maybe she just wanted to simply help him out... who knows? *shrugs*

oh, and Makeshift Python, i agree with you...

[Scarlett]

^^I don't think i could argue with that one....

this goes out to the members of the Anti Ana Lucia Brigade: what do you think should Ana do or would've done that would convince you that she is not a nasty person that you think she is now? (and please don't answer that she should get killed and leave the show or something down that line...just feed my curiosity a bit please :))
Lol you know me (us) too well...I was forming that response as I read that part of the question. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, as much as I absolutely abhor her character because of her actions, I don't really think she's "evil" despite my abrasive language. "Nasty" is a good word for it. What bothers me most about her is her complete disrespect for human dignity. I respected her actions toward the kids on the island, and her efforts to keep the tailees safe. She was instrumental if not vital to their survival--but there's a difference between sacrificing for people's survival and their welfare.

I know we cant' completely compare the tailees with the originals, but just humor me. All fangirlishness and shippy-ness aside, Jack is the epitome of a leader in my opinion. He's risked his life on several occasions to help others, including in the Pilot when he ran back to help CHarlie, who he barely knew. AL behaved similarly at times, offering to run back and get Cindy and all. I'm not arguing that.

But there's a huge difference in their responses to injured/upset people that to me, is a huge factor in my dislike for AL. Jack, in addition to caring about the others' survival, cares about their welfare. It's always him who does little emotional checkups on everyone, sitting w/ Rose, trying to talk to Michael about Walt, being sympathetic to Charlie about his withdrawl and feelings of helplessness, comforting pregnant Claire, etc. You can dislike Jack and still admit that he genuinely cares about the wellbeing of the other survivors--not just brute survival.

Yes, AL's situation is a lot more heated and intense. They've had it rough. But how long does it take to, during one of their breaks from hiking or digging or whatever, say "So how are you feeling, Bernard?" or "You hanging in there, Eko?" You never see a glimpse of that in AL, that I can recall from "The Other 48 Days." Concern for the children's lives, and comforting the little girl, yes. But you don't see the concern for the emotional welfare of those around her--just their survival. That's one factor.

So if I saw AL develop an actual concern for others--not just selfishly fearing for her OWN life or projecting her OWN baby issues on the kids--and talk to them like they're actual human beings and not just her "charges" to get through the island, then my hate would certainly lessen a little.

Again, it all boils down to her attitude--you can be effective and even brutal when you have to be without having her attitude. Sayid's behaved horrendously to the point that I was disgusted with his actions (torturing Sawyer) but I was able to "forgive" his character because he was genearlly a good man and because his attitude kicked in and caused him to leave the camp in shame. He gets out of control sometimes (as do all the characters) but generally I like him. Same with Sawyer. He's a complete asshole at times, and has done disgusting things to be sure. But overall, his attitude and character are such that I can't find too much fault in him. In other words, the good outweighs the bad with all the characters--except Ana Lucia.

Locke is my second-least favorite character, simply because I disagree with him on a lot and don't trust him--especially after his obession with the hatch and his writing off Boone's death as a "sacrifice" to the island. He's knocked Sayid out and destroyed the transceiver and drugged Boone and died him to a tree, actions which no "great white hunter" schpeel can make me accept. But despite my almost outright dislike for him, his "personality" makes me at least accept him as a character, evne if I don't always agree with him and am sometimes disgusted by his actions.

This is getting long, but just one more thing and I'll write more later--as PolarBear said, it's also the writing of AL's character. To me, and I know I'm biased, but to me it's horrendously one-dimensional. Her backstory was pathetically boring. The only glimpse that I liked was when she shot Jason, surprising since her brutality is what I hate most about her. In that one second, I respected and understood her as a woman. But for the rest of the show, she's been one-note and horribly flat.

I must admit that, for several reasons, I can almost guarantee I'll never like AL. Call me closed-minded, but I kinow myself--I might warm up to her, but I'll never like her. I don't have many kind feelings toward the actress, don't appreciate the producers bringing her/her character onto the already near-perfect show in the first place, and of course have to roll my eyes at yet another distraction/roadblock to the "ships" I support. But more importantly, AL the character has shown few redeeming qualites. I guess it would take a miracle for me to truly like her. But I'd hate her a LOT less if she'd stop being so "I'm a tough chica, look at me" and be a real person for once, and treat others with respect. Not just help them, but truly show respect to others.


Btw--I forgot to add, as a concession to you AL lovers, that I must admit, the one moment I ever thought she did "kick ass" was when she walked up to Nathan adn kicked him in the chin. I seriously laughed out loud despite the intensity of the moment, it was pretty cool...even though it was the wrong guy :)

[thefilmchick]

I know we cant' completely compare the tailees with the originals, but just humor me. All fangirlishness and shippy-ness aside, Jack is the epitome of a leader in my opinion.

Hahaha. That's another topic, though, and you know well enough where I stand there... :)

The only glimpse that I liked was when she shot Jason, surprising since her brutality is what I hate most about her. In that one second, I respected and understood her as a woman. But for the rest of the show, she's been one-note and horribly flat.

That's when I felt the least for her, ironically enough. I did not 'respect and understand her as a woman' there, so that's not a universal constant by any means. To me, shooting someone who causes you to lose your child isn't justified at all, and I did not like that. My sympathies for her slipped some, there, even when you take away the feeling that I was being manipulated into some sort of 'OH NOES TRAGIC DEAD BABIES!' backstory. (Note it's late at night, so I may not make 100% sense. But I think that explanation does. Will edit it tomorrow if it doesn't.)

[*Pauly*]

Finally we can kill off the "Hate Evil Ana-Lucia" thread and have a more mature title so we don't get arrogant people who never read posts and go "You guys are lame".
.

Yeah I do think we need a better title I'm all for Anti-AnaL ;)

[Scarlett]

That's when I felt the least for her, ironically enough. I did not 'respect and understand her as a woman' there, so that's not a universal constant by any means. To me, shooting someone who causes you to lose your child isn't justified at all, and I did not like that. My sympathies for her slipped some, there, even when you take away the feeling that I was being manipulated into some sort of 'OH NOES TRAGIC DEAD BABIES!' backstory. (Note it's late at night, so I may not make 100% sense. But I think that explanation does. Will edit it tomorrow if it doesn't.)
No, I think I gotcha. It's not that I was suddenly overcome with sympathy for her or was cheering for her, but I had a glimpse where I actually saw where she was coming from. Up until that point, in my mind, she was this almost inhuman (and certainy inhumane) creature who walked around with a habitual scowl on her face and seemed to care about no one except maybe the children. I didn't see any flickers of depth or passionate feelings, just selfish self-preservation and the desire to save the other tailees.

But when she said "I was pregnant," first of all it called to mind maternal images that contrasted starkly with my image of her as a brute she-man (character-wise) with her little bandana and stick. It immediately connoted femininity and vulnerability--she had carried life, only to have the baby killed in her own body beacuse that asshole decided to take a cop down. I didn't even flinch when she shot him because although yes I find it morally wrong to kill someone for inadvertently killing your unborn child, a) it's a TV show and I overlook a lot as far as characters murdering people before the island and b) at least it showed her to have some depth and passionate feeling, not just being some robotic "Rambina."

I guess it doesn't really make sense logically, but I'm just saying that I felt teh most sympathy for her then--at least it showed she cared about something and must have been happy once at the thought of her baby. :shrugs:

PolarBear, I agree. Although I'm not ashamed by the Official Ana Lucia is a Pointless Evil Character thread title, either. So harsh, but so true IMO! ;)

[mge1979]

You make some good points there, Scarlett...if only all of the Anti-Ana people would be as civilized as you (and PolarBear, to name a few) then we might actually go places and rule the damn forum for all i care!!! lol

Your favorite AL scene was when she kicked Nathan on the chin?! That's one of the AL moments that i didn't like...

I gotta say, i don't think that there is such a term as "one-dimensional". Technically speaking i've never encountered that in math...i think that the minimum is two, say for example, in analytical geometry, if you plot a point in a plane there's always the x and y, therefore the minimum is two. :D

As far as i'm concerned, we've only seen Ana Lucia's "bad/hardcore" side, so to speak, we have an entire season to find out if AL is going be all nice and sensitive as Jack or the other fussies for that matter...

PolarBear, your brain transplant response was hilarious although i don't think that the producers/writers are planning to give AL a complete 180... perhaps they could make her less "abrassive" as you guys would like to call it...

[Razor]

The only glimpse that I liked was when she shot Jason, surprising since her brutality is what I hate most about her. In that one second, I respected and understood her as a woman. But for the rest of the show, she's been one-note and horribly flat.
That's when I felt the least for her, ironically enough. I did not 'respect and understand her as a woman' there, so that's not a universal constant by any means. To me, shooting someone who causes you to lose your child isn't justified at all, and I did not like that. My sympathies for her slipped some, there, even when you take away the feeling that I was being manipulated into some sort of 'OH NOES TRAGIC DEAD BABIES!' backstory. (Note it's late at night, so I may not make 100% sense. But I think that explanation does. Will edit it tomorrow if it doesn't.)
The only thing I liked (appreciated(?)/respected) about the scene with Ana shooting Jason was that it appeared she had been willing to pay the price (sacrifice her freedom) for a belief that she deserved to exact revenge (beyond what the law would have provided). No one who's trying to "get away with murder" (particularly when familiar with law enforement methods) would be sitting in the bar where the intended victim was last seen, follow him into a packed parking area (I'm not familiar with LA - aren't there surveillance/video cameras?) and shoot him three times, and then walk up, hover over him and pumps three more shots into him. No disguise, no alibi, no seeming concern for witnesses (I don't know why she didn't just shoot him in the bar - unless it was to ensure that she wouldn't be stopped or stopped before she had the chance to empty her clip and be 100% sure(?)). I'm really curious to see what fluke sequence of events transpired after she was last seen standing over Jason, to allow her to be free to travel to Australia. I initially thought she fled the US to AU, but since she seemed to be travelling back to LA of her own volition - it seems unlikely. She doesn't strike me as the "fleeing" type - perhaps best illustrated by her lying the knife and gun at Sayid's feet and saying "Go ahead, pick it up, I deserve it.". Not exactly a selfish fearing for her own life.

ASIDE (next topic?): Didn't Sayid get good marks for telling Sawyer "You want to take a shot? Take it. Know that I left this camp out of shame for what I did to you. It was never my intention to return."? I can't recall, but I don't sense any lasting animosity toward him. How is Ana's situation different? One person committed their "sin" because they were led to believe it was a necessity to save a life. While the other committed theirs because their situation (history/environment) led her to believe it was necessary to save the lives of many (including their own). Both expressed shame and a wilingness to accept the consequences. Is there a core group of Sayid Haters out there as well?

2nd ASIDE (where I switch sides on Ana): What is everyone's opinion of the scene where Ana draws her weapon against Travis (The TV toting shmuck). This scene is second only to Locke's speaking on the phone to "Helen", in making me throw on the mental brakes and think"whoaaa, this character has some reaaaaaal problems". Unrealistic expectations on my part for sure, but, when her character was developing I was actually looking forward to someone who was even "harder/sterner" or "mentally tough". I didn't welcome this glaring vulnerability - I was happy with her slight "lowering" of her defenses that she showed when alone with Eko.

Sorry for the length (rambling:D), it's too early.

[mge1979]

ASIDE (next topic?): [/SIZE][/FONT] Didn't Sayid get good marks for telling Sawyer "You want to take a shot? Take it. Know that I left this camp out of shame for what I did to you. It was never my intention to return."? I can't recall, but I don't sense any lasting animosity toward him. How is Ana's situation different? One person committed their "sin" because they were led to believe it was a necessity to save a life. While the other committed theirs because their situation (history/environment) led her to believe it was necessary to save the lives of many (including their own). Both expressed shame and a wilingness to accept the consequences. Is there a core group of Sayid Haters out there as well?


Exactly!
To quote Mr. Spock: "The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few". I think that's what Ana's been during the whole weird journey with the tailees-- she is being logical...

[juniper]

What is everyone's opinion of the scene where Ana draws her weapon against Travis (The TV toting shmuck). This scene is second only to Locke's speaking on the phone to "Helen", in making me throw on the mental brakes and think"whoaaa, this character has some reaaaaaal problems". Unrealistic expectations on my part for sure, but, when her character was developing I was actually looking forward to someone who was even "harder/sterner" or "mentally tough". I didn't welcome this glaring vulnerability - I was happy with her slight "lowering" of her defenses that she showed when alone with Eko.

That's what I was hoping for very early on as well. They'll show development eventually, though. I think they'll either have to go in that direction within the next few seasons or else "soften" her character. I hope they do the former of the two. It would be so much more interesting to watch, especially since they've gone the softening route with Sawyer (more amusing, but less exciting IMO).

I hated the shooting scene. Yes, she's undoubtedly in a great deal of pain after having lost her baby, but this isn't how most women react upon consideration. As an officer, what happened to her could have held a great deal of weight in deciding Jason's fate, and there would have been one positive note to counter what had happened. She didn't fight, but succumbed to rage and selfishly threw that and her life away along with any amount of respect I would have afforded her as a cop, a woman, or a civilized human being in my opinion.

Re: Sayid, I think he did get good marks for saying that, but I'm not sure a vast amount of animosity ever existed toward his character. Part of the reason for that was that he immediately repented and left their little civilization once he realized he'd lost control of himself. Ana's response was to threaten the group at gunpoint and tie him to a tree. While I can't say it's illogical, I can't say it's logical either as it isn't something I would be willing to do once I'd realized I've lost it. (I'm assuming she realized it at that point.) Although perhaps it was something Sayid would have done in his early days of training? Who knows. Anyway, the rest of her group abandoned her at that point because she'd crossed the line. Sayid strikes me as the more moral and logical one, Ana the more loose canon. As for why he gets the sympathy vote and she doesn't, like I stated before, I think she needs to connect with viewers. Different strokes for different folks.

Sorry.... (We should call this the AL rambling on thread.) :)

[Raven O'Reilly]

Just throwing some change in here:

I think the Ana backstory may be the same for some of you in the sense I felt over Shannon's backstory. Any of you who know me, know that I hate Shannon. When I saw her backstory, I started to feel sympathy for her and that made me angry, cause I enjoy hating her character. lol However, I justify it by saying that despite what has happened to you in the past, doesn't justify what you do in the present or the future. It may explain it, but it doesn't justify it.

So, I sorta feel the same about Ana, though I haven't made up my mind on my opinion on her just yet.

Though, I do believe she has some redemption quality to her because I think that's a reason why they are on the island on the first place - to get rid of baggage and start anew. If Shannon can turn around, which it looks like she was starting to, then Ana can also.

And you guys are welcome for the thread. :) I'm glad you're doing a good job of discussing (which is always more fun than insulting each other).

[Mettanna]

This thread rocks. All for civility!

Anyway, I know you're talking about something else right now, but I gotta say on this one:

If my memory serves me right, PolarBear, it was Goodwin who suggested that they should go someplace higher to get a better radio signal... None of us knows what's going on inside Ana's head the moment she decided to join Goodwin so i cannot conclude that she went with him to interrogate him or maybe she just wanted to simply help him out... who knows? *shrugs*
My perception that she was siezing her chance before it passed her by. They had just found the hatch- she made sure Goodwin didn't have time to tell the Others where they were, thus ensuring their safety there. She saw the chance and she grabbed it.

And on this one:
But how long does it take to, during one of their breaks from hiking or digging or whatever, say "So how are you feeling, Bernard?" or "You hanging in there, Eko?" You never see a glimpse of that in AL, that I can recall from "The Other 48 Days."

Having personally seen "The Other 48 Days" upwards of five times, I can inform you that this is techinically false, since she did ask Eko if he was okay on the second day when they were burying the two Others he had killed. But, obviously, he didn't answer.

[Scarlett]

Having personally seen "The Other 48 Days" upwards of five times, I can inform you that this is techinically false, since she did ask Eko if he was okay on the second day when they were burying the two Others he had killed. But, obviously, he didn't answer.
Ah, ok, I stand corrected. But a few instances aside, you just don't see the same concern that one would expect as this great "leader" figure. At all.

As for this thread, I love it too. See what happens when you stay out of people's threads and we forge a new community together instead of invading others'? ;)

[Leigh]

Geezaloo scarlett and I thought I was the queen of long posts. :D

Seriously though, I'm too tired to debate all of the things you were talking about.....maybe later, but mge....I will say in regards to:

If my memory serves me right, PolarBear, it was Goodwin who suggested that they should go someplace higher to get a better radio signal... None of us knows what's going on inside Ana's head the moment she decided to join Goodwin so i cannot conclude that she went with him to interrogate him or maybe she just wanted to simply help him out... who knows? *shrugs*

I think that she really started to suspect him from near the start, b/c of the fact that she obviously had noticed how he wasn't wet....she wouldn't have JUST thought of that once they got up the hill, so what I'm thinking is that at the very least she knew he was fishy when he was staring at her upon waking, and I think she knew it was him 100% that one day where she looked at him strangely when he walked past. When he was talking about taking the radio, it was clear that she knew it was him and knew he'd go destroy the radio or something, so she gives him a little flirty smile so she can go, then begins her interrogation to find out if what she thinks is right, which I think she knew the whole time, but was just going through the motions....just to be sure this time after the whole Nathan bit. Ana knew it was him for a little while at least, I think....she was baiting him....waiting it out....clever. Though yes, risky. :cool:

[*Pauly*]

If I was going to be extremely harsh on her I would say she used Nathan as a test at least near the end. Trying to make Goodwin play his hand and reveal himself by getting rid of Nathan. I am pretty sure though that she knew Goodwin was an other long before the trek up the hill and she took the opportunity to go take him out herself. I think it parallels the killing of Jason in that she went out on her own to kill him and didn't tell her mother who he was when she had the chance. Both had children involved also. I think she was wrong to do both, they were very risky and just attempts at getting some macho revenge on people.

[Leigh]

just attempts at getting some macho revenge on people.

Yep. And that is why it was so darn cool. :D

[*Pauly*]

In killing Goodwin though she kinda lost the chance to find out where the kids are. I guess her and Charlie buggered up that for each side with their macho revenge desires lol

[mge1979]

i don't think Ana buggered up the way Charlie did. it just so happened that Goodwin attacked her right smack in the middle of her interrogation that she didn't have the chance to find out some of the vital info that she needed because she's busy defending herself. As for Charlie, what can i say? before Ethan had the chance to talk, he silenced him with a gun. i'd say, Charlie has more macho revenge issues then than Ana...

[*Pauly*]

lol You can't really call that much of an interrogation. She could have clonked him on the head on the way back to camp and then interrogated him. She wanted to catch him off guard so she can take some form of revenge on him herself. I mean she didn't have to fight him it was initiated by her, not him.

Edit: Okay I have conclusive proof (in my eyes) that Ana Lucia knew long before they took that trek into the jungle. Just after Nathan is found missing and they leave they come out overlooking the sea. Ana looks out at sea and then at Goodwin and back again. To me this is her figuring out that he never got wet in the sea from the crash like everyone else. I uploaded it here :

http://media.putfile.com/Just-After-They-Leave-Camp

:D

[mge1979]

Since i'm feeling nauseous today, I'll let you win this round, PolarBear. :nod:... Looks like i can't really argue with a guy with good attachments, therefore i'll concede for now :D

I'll be back the moment the pain killer kicks in... my head hurts like hell!!! aaargh!!!

[Razor]

PolarBear, I realize you placed a :D at the end of your post - which leads me to believe you may be joking (unsure), but you also went to the trouble to support your claim with the cool film clip.:confused: So I'll reply (just in case:o).

This scene, I'll agree, is proof of something. "Conclusive" proof of what she "knew", however, would require knowledge of what Ana was thinking both prior to the glance at Goodwin, and after. Even if we suspected that Ana was sorting the infiltrator issue out in her head as she stared at the ocean, it was Goodwin who, by sidling up right next to her, broke her train of thought (perhaps his intent?). She would have glanced at anyone who had pulled up along side of her. This may have backfired on Goodwin as his action may also have been the point where Ana began to consider "What about Goodwin?".

OT: Does anyone have insights as to why Goodwin remained with the remaining six (6), then five (5), (after Nathan's murder)? It's pretty easy to surmise that he was originally needed to create the two lists. One to identify/describe the athletic "threats" who were to be removed on the first attack, and the second being the list of the "good" ones. Why remain afterward? Surely Goodwin, given the ease in which he snapped Nathan's neck, could have killed each of them as they slept. Is there another "good" one in their midst that "They" missed or were undecided about wanting? Could it have been Cindy? Any thoughts as to another motive?

[*Pauly*]

No, I wasn't joking. To me it is what was meant there. I guess it's how you perceive things but I think that it was what the writers were saying there. Not conclusive but I believe if you asked the writers they would say the same thing.

What do you suppose she was thinking about then? Why the focus on the sea? I think it's clealy that considering a few scenes later they go for that trek.

[Razor]

No, I wasn't joking. To me it is what was meant there. I guess it's how you perceive things but I think that it was what the writers were saying there. Not conclusive but I believe if you asked the writers they would say the same thing.

What do you suppose she was thinking about then? Why the focus on the sea? I think it's clealy that considering a few scenes later they go for that trek.

I admit it's possible. It's just that it would be a lot more convincing if Goodwin hadn't been the one to initiate the "glance" by Ana. My personal interpretation, is that she wasn't thinking about him - until he broke her concentration. It acted as a reminder "What about him" bringing the shadow of suspicion over him.

What do I think she could have been thinking about while staring at the sea? ... Well, the look on her face could definitely be construed as being in "deep" thought, but not necessarily involving the ocean itself. Locke, Rose, Charlie, Kate, Sun (probably more) ... have all been shown staring out at the sea. It's just something many people do (myself included), whether thinking about the present, reflecting on the past, or contemplating the future.

[Mettanna]

No wonder everyone's posts are so long on this thread...there's so many different topics to discuss....

This scene, I'll agree, is proof of something. "Conclusive" proof of what she "knew", however, would require knowledge of what Ana was thinking both prior to the glance at Goodwin, and after. Even if we suspected that Ana was sorting the infiltrator issue out in her head as she stared at the ocean, it was Goodwin who, by sidling up right next to her, broke her train of thought (perhaps his intent?). She would have glanced at anyone who had pulled up along side of her. This may have backfired on Goodwin as his action may also have been the point where Ana began to consider "What about Goodwin?".

I agree- I think that must have been when Ana started puting the pieces together. I never believed she was using Nathan as Goodwin-bait, and I also always thought she knew about Goodwin before the trek up the hill.

So, if I'm right about her not using Goodwin as bait and knowing that Goodwin was the Other beforhand, when else, really, could she have worked it out? Nathan died on day 24, she killed Goodwin on day 27.

So...in my opinion it must have worked out like this: They're treking through the jungleon days 24, 25, and 26. As they're doing so, Ana's trying to figure out the whole infiltration thing... She was probably going through everyone in her mind. Everyone had an alibi- She saw Eko directly after the crash, she watched Libby set the guys leg, Bernard was in a tree, etc...So then, as Ana's pondering this, they come to the ocean, and she looks at Goodwin. And then it occurs to her "Heeey, wait a minute...."

And there you have it.

Good find there Polarbear...I hadn't really thought about that before. It's all very clear to me now...

[Fish1941]

If I was going to be extremely harsh on her I would say she used Nathan as a test at least near the end. Trying to make Goodwin play his hand and reveal himself by getting rid of Nathan. I am pretty sure though that she knew Goodwin was an other long before the trek up the hill and she took the opportunity to go take him out herself. I think it parallels the killing of Jason in that she went out on her own to kill him and didn't tell her mother who he was when she had the chance. Both had children involved also. I think she was wrong to do both, they were very risky and just attempts at getting some macho revenge on people.


Are you stating that Ana-Lucia deliberately used Nathan as a means to draw out Goodwin? You're comparing this to her killing of Jason? Because I find all of this hard to believe. She seemed suspicious of Nathan for quite a while. And so did Libby and Cindy, I might add. I believe that once she began to think about Goodwin, she realized that she had been mistaken of Nathan.

i'd say, Charlie has more macho revenge issues then than Ana...

I would further add that Charlie's murder of Ethan seemed more than just macho revenge. Perhaps - and this is merely an opinion, mind you - he wanted to show in his mind that he could take care of Claire as well as the others.

[mge1979]

I would further add that Charlie's murder of Ethan seemed more than just macho revenge. Perhaps - and this is merely an opinion, mind you - he wanted to show in his mind that he could take care of Claire as well as the others.

That is why it's so very macho, Fish! :D

Moving on, haters or not, who amongst you think that the wardrobe department are doing an awful job of not giving Ana a new set of clean clothes? The woman's been wearing that same old outfit for the past 48+ days...

[Mettanna]

^Seriously. It's driving me crazy! We should start a "Clothe Ana and Eko Campaign".

Also, I'm begining to wonder about Ana's life between the killing Jason and the crash...she reiterated again that she "was a cop." Do you think she just means she was a cop before the crash, or did she maybe go somewhere else (possibly the Army? She did know about the knife...) after killing Jason?

I know Leigh has posted theories like this...I beginning to think you may be right...

[Fish1941]

I guess that sometime between killing Jason and her arrival in Australia, Ana-Lucia had left the LAPD. Under what circumstances, I have no idea. If the cops had found out that she had killed Jason, surely she would be facing trial right now. So what happened?:confused:

[Mettanna]

I know...I'm really curious to find out. It seems that she got away with it...

[Leigh]

My basic theory:

I think that Ana was in the army BEFORE being a cop....like, right out of high school for between 1-4 years. Then Ana had, since killing Jason and disposing of the body (which producers say her flashback took place three years before the plane), become a higher ranking cop (hopefully)....then she is sent to Australia per the request of Australia PD to make sure Sawyer leaves for sure. So, she is there to escort him back (without his knowledge, you know just keep an eye on him, making sure he gets on the plane and lands). I believe this b/c the way she treated him SO harshly/like a prisoner....ANYWAY, then in the bar, her phone rings and it's her cop mom who's like "Ana....a body was found this morning. It's Jason soandso....Ana....Ana what did you do?" and Ana is like thinking OMG my life is over, when I step of that plane in LA I'm no longer a cop, or a free woman for that matter....she gets on the plane knowing what's coming and bam the plane crashes....how's that for fate (the theme of this lovely show). How ironic would that be....?

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it....b/c she wouldn't have said at first to Sayid, "I'm a cop." if she quit after killing Jason and hadn't been one for at least 2-3 years. Who would say that then? So, that means that at least up to the flight she was....so, is she talking as if "I WAS a cop..." only b/c she now thinks, well, I'm stuck here so I'm not exactly one anymore am I? You know?

Just a theory....*shrugs*

Though, it'd be a bit disappointing....b/c then she and Kate would be in the exact same predicament, that when they are rescued they are both facing jail for their crimes, that'd be too repeptative....

....SO, my only other theory is basically that Ana went of all rogue-like to do something that she knows will get her fired (not put in jail, but just lose her job).....who knows what that could be....maybe she had some score to settle with some perp or something freaky and her mom/boss was like "Don't go or you won't be a cop when you get back." and she went anyway and did God-knows-what....quite frankly I'm REALLY hoping that my first theory is wrong. I'm hoping that the Sawyer bit could be right, but I don't want her I'm a cop/was a cop and reason for being on the phone to have anything to do with Jason....that'd just be....kind of disappointing/predictable you know? Every other character has had multiple arcs (like Jack) to their backstories, I want Ana's to be that way too....

.....oh! Btw, I'm officially a Jana shipper now. I don't know why. I think Sawyer is much hotter and believe you me, I WANT SANA SEX! That will be hot and the superficial part of me can NOT wait to see it.....BUT, in the end....Jack/Ana baby! You know why? B/c after last night's ep....I officially dislike Kate more than ever and Sawyer is being an asshat again...so they can run off and have angry screwed up selfish immature little babies for all I care....HA!

[Joi]

Moving on, haters or not, who amongst you think that the wardrobe department are doing an awful job of not giving Ana a new set of clean clothes? The woman's been wearing that same old outfit for the past 48+ days...

I think the women nicked most of Ana's clothes...LOL. But I do remember a scene of Shannon, Sun or Claire possibly going through womens' clothing and passing them around.

Seriously good discussion -- will come back later when I have time to comment.

[Mettanna]

In response to Leigh's post...I'm still completely indecisive about Ana-ships. So very difficult to decide...I think I'm still holding out for Ana independence, unlikely as it may be. I could say more, but this is kind of off-topic...

[Scarlett]

In response to Leigh's post...I'm still completely indecisive about Ana-ships. So very difficult to decide...I think I'm still holding out for Ana independence, unlikely as it may be. I could say more, but this is kind of off-topic...
Yeah, it is. Ther'es enough to fight about regarding AL w/o bringing ships into the picture...

[Leigh]

I thought this would be appropriate for this thread, to add a bit of humor. :D

http://www.mclaughlinlabs.com/leigh/forumstuff/funny01.jpg

http://www.mclaughlinlabs.com/leigh/forumstuff/funny02.jpg

http://www.mclaughlinlabs.com/leigh/forumstuff/funny03.jpg

I think a couple of the mods can really relate to the third one. :D

[nycjoc]

^^^that's funny Leigh. From a good movie too.

[mge1979]

Leigh, you crazy girl, it's hilarious! :rotflol:

[La Mer]

^Haha, that's great Leigh Lol!:D

[Mettanna]

:rotflol: That's great Leigh...

[Gage]

Leigh, I loved the photos. I'm glad your a Jana shipper now, me to. I wouldn't mind some Sana stuff either but in the end Jack & Ana. Theorys arn't bad either, but the phone call Jason thing, yeah I hope thats wrong to cause I don't want her to get caught & go to prison or jail or something or be like Kate, she's way better than Kate.

Like I say I love the banana :banana: lol

[Scarlett]

Leigh, I loved the photos. I'm glad your a Jana shipper now, me to. I wouldn't mind some Sana stuff either but in the end Jack & Ana. Theorys arn't bad either, but the phone call Jason thing, yeah I hope thats wrong to cause I don't want her to get caught & go to prison or jail or something or be like Kate, she's way better than Kate.

Like I say I love the banana :banana: lol
When did this become the pro-AL/Jana thread?

Back to discussion of the actual character, what does everyone think about AL's future involvement in the "army" Jack wants to raise. Will her involvement be beneficial or detrimental?

Personally, I think she obviously has skills to contribute, and is one more person with weapons experience. However, I think her ego tripping could get in the way of anything they're actually trying to do--meaning, unless she's the leader I don't see her working well. Seems the type of personality that's the leader or nothing. Thoughts?

[mge1979]

When did this become the pro-AL/Jana thread??

I was wondering when you're going to show up... it's about time! :D

Back to discussion of the actual character, what does everyone think about AL's future involvement in the "army" Jack wants to raise. Will her involvement be beneficial or detrimental?

Personally, I think she obviously has skills to contribute, and is one more person with weapons experience. However, I think her ego tripping could get in the way of anything they're actually trying to do--meaning, unless she's the leader I don't see her working well. Seems the type of personality that's the leader or nothing. Thoughts?

I think Jack's whole army thingy was kind of funny... Maybe he should've just asked AL what would it take to build up their defenses, i think it's the more appropriate question he should've asked...

Anyway, I agree on most of the stuffs you said except the ego-tripping part... I think Jack's ego (it was his idea anyway) would also get in the way, so is Locke's, Sawyer's, etc...

bottom line is we are going to expect a whole lot of heat and tension amongst the characters along the way should this whole "army" thing push through, therefore i don't believe that AL should be singled out on the ego trip part...

[juniper]

I agree with you on Jack's build-an-army comment, mge. IMO that was undoubtedly the single most cringe-inducing moment of Lost thus far. Poor Foxy, he didn't deserve that. *shakes head*

Yep, there's going to be a lot of head-butting from all parties, I'm guessing. Don't forget Sayid as well. He's the only one with actual army training as far as we know.

I think if AL sticks to sharing 'skills' we won't have much of an issue. I'm just afraid she's not much of the cooperating-for-the-good-of-everyone type and will attempt to take control, despite her self-imposed seclusion for the last few episodes. I sense too much rash, not nearly enough rational in her character. That's a liability in my book.

That's my two cents... but we shall see.

[Scarlett]

I agree with mge and juniper that the entire army thing was ridiculous in the first place. Way too dramatic, even for Lost.

Anyway, yes, everyone on the island has an ego, or at least the prominent leader figures. Jack certainly has his moments where I'd like to shake him. But to the best of my memory, AL is the only person who's actually punched and stepped on an unarmed, injured man because he was mouthing off to her. Sawyer had been eliminated as a threat, and yet AL felt it necessary to punch him and step in his wound and say "When I say jump, you jump." That's quite possibly the most egotistical thing ever uttered on Lost. Her entire "When I say walk..." speech.

That kind of thinking would get her into trouble if she wasn't the "general" of the little army. If Jack, Kate, Sayid, Locke, whoever was higher than her in the chain of command (and let's face it, no one else is as trigger happy so the chances of that happening are high plus the fact that more people trust them)....I can definitely seeing AL flipping out and ego-tripping, more so than Jack or Sayid would.

[Razor]

Yep, there's going to be a lot of head-butting from all parties, I'm guessing. Don't forget Sayid as well. He's the only one with actual army training as far as we know.


Denying (overlooking?) Jin's compulsary military service/training makes as little sense as denying that Sayid had combat or military strategy training (because neither was shown having received that training). Both (IMO) should be assumed with no evidence to the contrary.

I agree with mge and juniper that the entire army thing was ridiculous in the first place. Way too dramatic, even for Lost.

This is Off Topic - but, when would you fight back or defend yourself? 17 people killed/captured/or abducted is not enough?

Anyway, yes, everyone on the island has an ego, or at least the prominent leader figures. Jack certainly has his moments where I'd like to shake him. But to the best of my memory, AL is the only person who's actually punched and stepped on an unarmed, injured man because he was mouthing off to her. Sawyer had been eliminated as a threat, and yet AL felt it necessary to punch him and step in his wound and say "When I say jump, you jump." That's quite possibly the most egotistical thing ever uttered on Lost. Her entire "When I say walk..." speech.

I don't believe, nor did Ana (IMO), that Sawyer had been removed as a "threat" just because the rock was no longer in his hand. It's more difficult to get someone to "drop" their attitude.

As for the "when I say jump..." speech..., surely you've heard this before in a show/movie? It's as cliched of a "military" attitude as I could imagine.

What part of Ana's behavior would have been "unusual" or considered out-of-character if the role had been a male army captain rather than a female ex-cop?

That kind of thinking would get her into trouble if she wasn't the "general" of the little army. If Jack, Kate, Sayid, Locke, whoever was higher than her in the chain of command (and let's face it, no one else is as trigger happy so the chances of that happening are high plus the fact that more people trust them)....I can definitely seeing AL flipping out and ego-tripping, more so than Jack or Sayid would. Big "If" in that first sentence. I don't understand the second part though? "If Jack, Kate, ..." what? I have no idea where you were headed? No one was higher in the chain of command when she commited her atrocities:rolleyes: to mankind.

Since we have no idea what Ana's reply to Jack was (nor can she be held responsible for what is asked of her) ..., would anyone else find it funny if (after all the debate on this forum) her reply was "shouldn't you be asking Sayid? He was in the military.":D I wouldn't be surprised if it just created a whole new wave of Ana hating because she would then be viewed as selfish and shirking responsibility.:rolleyes: I don't see that reply happening though, since I think Ana is plenty qualified to answer the question regarding the timeframe to train. If Jack wanted to know the answer to 2+2, he needn't find a math teacher among the survivers.:D

[Leigh]

WI think her ego tripping could get in the way of anything they're actually trying to do--meaning, unless she's the leader I don't see her working well. Seems the type of personality that's the leader or nothing. Thoughts?

I just don't understand the the "ego-rtip" bit....when has Ana ver acted like she was queen of the world in a way that was NOT neccessary? The ONLY time was her "When I tell you to do something...." speech to a contradictive, rock-carrying Sawyer.

I don't get why so many people say being boldly and sometimes harshly in charge in a hellish environment is ego-tripping. She was put in charge reluctantly....I mean, Day 2 or whatever Libby comes to her about the guy who would be the fourth to go. Then after than people kept looking to her. After the attack Nathan comes out and tells her how many people are missing....blah blah blah. They sort of put her in a leadership role from the start and then whenever she'd make a suggestion NICELY mind you, like saying they need to stay at the beach, telling Nathan that the go in pairs, etc.....all of this she did nicely. BUT they all friggin opposed her.....they all questioned and challenged her, and what did she do? She gave in. She saw that they as a group wanted to do something else. She didn't continue to challenge them, she didn't argue or get snotty, nothing....then when they did what the group wanted, bad things happened. Again and again they happened. So eventually I thin she realized, you know what most of these people don't know squat about surviving, and they are making stupid decisions and they look at me as a leader anyway so why not just go balls out and take full charge. You can see it play out like that just from her facial expressions over the course of The Other 48 Days, pretty clearly. She went from acting like she wanted to be left alone to giving that up and basically deciding to "boss" people around. And you know what....had she not, Rose would likely be a widower and Libby'd be dead....

.....so like I said....there really isn't any reason to call what Ana has done "eg-tripping".....firm? Yes. A little bossy? Yes. But all of this was almost always neccessary....especially considering the weak people she was dealing with.

[mge1979]

Our man, Razor, here did make a very good point and i have to agree with him on this... none of us know what Ana's response on the whole army thing would be, at least not yet...we'll all have to wait and see...

[juniper]

Denying (overlooking?) Jin's compulsary military service/training makes as little sense as denying that Sayid had combat or military strategy training (because neither was shown having received that training). Both (IMO) should be assumed with no evidence to the contrary.

You're right, as fiction dictates, we make assumptions and fill in the obligatory blanks, but I'm going out on a limb and assuming for all intents and purposes that Sayid's dealt more with the atrocities of war (as he stated that he was a soldier for the RG during the Gulf War, rather than a communications officer, and I believe that at that time he'd have been a bit, er, embattled :D ) than Jin. No disrespect intended, but conscription is in no way equivalent to fighting in a war (nor is LAPD training).

This is Off Topic - but, when would you fight back or defend yourself? 17 people killed/captured/or abducted is not enough?

I'm not arguing he hasn't a reason for concern or even that they should sit back; it was the B-movie line manner in which he uttered it. It resulted in levity when there should have been fear or in the very least gravity.

What part of Ana's behavior would have been "unusual" or considered out-of-character if the role had been a male army captain rather than a female ex-cop?

*forced :D* Forgive me, but I'm going to ignore a few choice words, in favor of avoiding a re-enactment of the War of Pages 30-40 of the AL:Evil Thread. There was too much civil unrest, and no one was rejoicing. I think it isn't so much that it's OOC for her, as her character doesn't strike a personal chord with some, her professional affiliation and other characteristics aside. The cliched movie part to which you just alluded has everything to do with it. That cliched Rambo part suits her, but is ludicrous on this show IMO.

Since we have no idea what Ana's reply to Jack was (nor can she be held responsible for what is asked of her) ..., would anyone else find it funny if (after all the debate on this forum) her reply was "shouldn't you be asking Sayid? He was in the military." I wouldn't be surprised if it just created a whole new wave of Ana hating because she would then be viewed as selfish and shirking responsibility. I don't see that reply happening though, since I think Ana is plenty qualified to answer the question regarding the timeframe to train. If Jack wanted to know the answer to 2+2, he needn't find a math teacher among the survivers.

No, but police training is in no way synonymous with military. She might know, yes, but so might Hurley by that reasoning. It seems odd to me that he would ask her, and why bother showing him asking her rather than either of them mentioning Sayid? I think he probably asked her in order to rally a supporter. Also it seems to me a great deal of criticism toward her is regarding her inability to be compromising or respectful in the company of others, so I don't believe it would be to her discredit to behave accordingly. Only she doesn't seem to have been written that way.

[Razor]

You're right, as fiction dictates, we make assumptions and fill in the obligatory blanks, but I'm going out on a limb and assuming for all intents and purposes that Sayid's dealt more with the atrocities of war (as he stated that he was a soldier for the RG during the Gulf War, rather than a communications officer, and I believe that at that time he'd have been a bit, er, embattled :D ) than Jin. No disrespect intended, but conscription is in no way equivalent to fighting in a war (nor is LAPD training). I don't see how being in a war makes you a better shot with a gun or better at hand-to-hand combat than a person who was just trained. It's not learned by osmosis. Sayid was shown in his wartime position: interogating prisoners. While I do not doubt he will be valuable if they ever capture (and keep alive) an Other, I doubt too many of the people he tortured were armed or put up a struggle. IMO, the "best qualified" is the person who received the best instruction - and I'm not qualified to comment on the comparative training received in Iraq versus Korea? Anyone?
I'm not arguing he hasn't a reason for concern or even that they should sit back; it was the B-movie line manner in which he uttered it. It resulted in levity when there should have been fear or in the very least gravity. Okay, I guess - but I didn't receive it that way.
*forced :D* Forgive me, but I'm going to ignore a few choice words, in favor of avoiding a re-enactment of the War of Pages 30-40 of the AL:Evil Thread. There was too much civil unrest, and no one was rejoicing. I think it isn't so much that it's OOC for her, as her character doesn't strike a personal chord with some, her professional affiliation and other characteristics aside. The cliched movie part to which you just alluded has everything to do with it. That cliched Rambo part suits her, but is ludicrous on this show IMO.:confused: Why would you need to dredge up another threads dischord in order to answer a simple question: would Ana's actions have seemed inappropriate if it was a military officer (not Rambo - real) in the role? I could understand your position if you felt that type of leader wasn't required (I wouldn't agree, but it would be fruitless belaboring an opinion re: life & death situations and what is needed or at least what militaries deem necessary.)

It almost sounds as though you're saying it's not the actions - but the presentation? Which would really be beyond debate since it's the writers decision and personal preference.

No, but police training is in no way synonymous with military. She might know, yes, but so might Hurley by that reasoning. It seems odd to me that he would ask her, and why bother showing him asking her rather than either of them mentioning Sayid? I think he probably asked her in order to rally a supporter. Also it seems to me a great deal of criticism toward her is regarding her inability to be compromising or respectful in the company of others, so I don't believe it would be to her discredit to behave accordingly. Only she doesn't seem to have been written that way.Might?:eek: Are you at all familiar with police training? The policemen I know are trained thoroughly in weapons as well as hand-to-hand combat. It's not a one time thing either. It's continual, with required programs/courses ... and that's in a small, peaceful, suburban town. If I were to guess, L.A. would probably require even more intense training. Either way, she's qualified to estimate the length of time it would take.

[Scarlett]

This is Off Topic - but, when would you fight back or defend yourself? 17 people killed/captured/or abducted is not enough?
Oh, I would certainly be up for forming a defensive group. They should have done that from the beginning. I meant Jack's actual phrasing, and how the episode was ended. I actually support the movement to fight back--it's about time.



As for the "when I say jump..." speech..., surely you've heard this before in a show/movie? It's as cliched of a "military" attitude as I could imagine
Exactly.

Since we have no idea what Ana's reply to Jack was (nor can she be held responsible for what is asked of her) ..., would anyone else find it funny if (after all the debate on this forum) her reply was "shouldn't you be asking Sayid? He was in the military.":D I would actually feel a glimmer of respect for her if she said something like that, which I think she will since they're trying to make her sympathetic. She'll prob say something self-deprecating. Which annoys me because it's so obvious they're trying to make her tolerable, but I would still respect the character for saying that. At least it wouldn't be her usual power-hungry BS.

Leigh, I think the biggest instance of ego-tripping I can think of besides the "When I say walk, you walk" was her behavior in "Collision." I understand she had to protect her life, fine. But the way she went about it disgusted me. Eliminate Sayid as a threat, OK. But take apart a dying man's stretcher, tie the griving man to a tree, and then snap at your "followers" and order them around like they're children? IN intense situations, of course I don't expect her to say "please." Of course sometimes you have to bark out orders. But after Sayid had already been died to the tree, AL still treated Libby and Eko like children/assistents. She had the nerve to try to guilt-trip Bernard into staying ("How long did I keep you alive?" or whatever). Yes, she did kep them alive. But that doesn't mean they're her servants to order around after the imediate threat has been eliminated.

Then, in perhaps the most transparent action of all, after she CLEARLY saw that Sayid was calmed down and had "forgiven" her more or less, she unties him and says "shoot me." My friend and I turned to each other and were like wtf? That was the most obvious thing she's ever done---anyone could see that Sayid was calm and had been talkign to her for a few hours. THere was no possible threat of him shooting her, however enraged he had been that morning. She only said that to get pity. If he had actually made a move for his gun, do you think she would have stood there and let him shoot her? there was no humility in that scene--just feigned shame.

[mge1979]

Then, in perhaps the most transparent action of all, after she CLEARLY saw that Sayid was calmed down and had "forgiven" her more or less, she unties him and says "shoot me." My friend and I turned to each other and were like wtf? That was the most obvious thing she's ever done---anyone could see that Sayid was calm and had been talkign to her for a few hours. THere was no possible threat of him shooting her, however enraged he had been that morning. She only said that to get pity. If he had actually made a move for his gun, do you think she would have stood there and let him shoot her? there was no humility in that scene--just feigned shame.

Your interpretation is different from mine. I think that AL being shameful on that scene is not "feign" as you and your friend think... i think it's genuine and I saw humility there... I think that she was already shameful the moment she told Mikey to go back to camp and get supplies because she's not going to join them that she's going to live alone... i think she regrets shooting Shannon and that she thinks that she doesn't deserve to be with the fusies, now that's shameful in my opinion, not ego trip...

I believe that the only ego trip AL did and you pointed that one out is when she told Bernard "How long have I kept you alive?" and she responded "cut me some slack" other than that---nada...

[juniper]

Razor, I don't live in a small suburban town (GR, MI), and yes, I'm familiar with my local law enforcement. They're important people and I have an abundance of respect for them. I know they do take police training courses, use guns extraordinarily well and learn procedures they need to do thier jobs. (I think AL's good with a gun and I already said she would be an asset in that aspect.) That doesn't change the fact that if I heard someone imply that because of this she's greatly suited to blindly lead or train an island army, it would concern me personally. It's nothing to do with weapons and defense tactics, it's AL and her lack of self-control and nature of needing to control others. It's the fact that I am sensible of the amount of danger they would be in that makes my say so actually.

I don't see how being in a war makes you a better shot with a gun or better at hand-to-hand combat than a person who was just trained. It's not learned by osmosis. Sayid was shown in his wartime position: interogating prisoners.

It doesn't make you a better shot, but being the best sure shot alive doesn't mean you're prepared for combat. (As for Sayid, it was said last season that he was a soldier as well as a communications officer.) She has a tendency to shoot blindly in a panic, and is apparently as likely to shoot an ally as an enemy - she did so days ago; she's not prepared for a battle. Her aim is fine; she most definitely isn't. It's not a technical issue. Soldiers who embark on a battlefield ill-prepared tend to come out of it the worse for wear; that's been my experience.

I'm kindly asking you to refrain from the "if the role had been a male army captain rather than a female ex-cop" remarks. (We all know some people believe our problems with her come down to a case of our own gender/race issues; because we're critical of AL, we're the "haters" (nice banner, btw), but frankly it's insulting and upsetting that there's no way to defend oneself online against what are horribly offensive accusations. I hope you respect that.) "Would Ana's actions have seemed inappropriate if it was a military officer?" is a different question entirely. And in response, once you remove the gender issues, I do believe an army captain would be more suited to do the aforementioned (i.e. lead and train an army) than an ex-cop.

[Scarlett]

OK, I'm all for off-color humor between friends, male or female. But AL's little comment to Jack about "hitting that" really shocked and sickened me. I found it tasteless and trashy--it's one thing if she had said something to Libby about that, or if Kate had said something like that to Sawyer or something. But to ask a guy you're kind of interested in if he's having a sexual relationship with a woman you don't know at all? Wtf? Not only is that non of her b usiness, but the fact that assumes that since Jack saved a woman with a gun to her head he must be "hitting that"....wow.

Ever heard of friendship, or love? Maybe Jack listened to Zeke because, I don't know, he didn't want an innocent woman to die? Anyone of the men or women would have done the same thing, no one would have let Kate die. Would she assume they were sleeping with her, too?

And her phrase--tacky to the extreme. It's none of her business, but it was made worse by the way she asked. Instad of asking "so, you and Kate have a little something-something" or "you guys friends or what?" (which would still be quite rude) she uses one of the crudest expressions for sex.

Also, it's hard to remember since Lost has been off the air for so long, but it's been THREE DAYS since she shot Shannon to death. I know it was an accident...but AL sure seems to have gotten over it quickly! She's back to joking around and bossing Jack (telling him to be more afraid of the Others) as if nothing happened. She isoalted herself for a few days because she feared the wrath of the other castaways, but now she seems damn happy to be flirting with Jack and getting the island gossip. Nevermind that Shannon lies buried a few feet away because of her actions. :rolleyes:

[Razor]

Razor, I don't live in a small suburban town (GR, MI), and yes, I'm familiar with my local law enforcement. They're important people and I have an abundance of respect for them. I know they do take police training courses, use guns extraordinarily well and learn procedures they need to do thier jobs. (I think AL's good with a gun and I already said she would be an asset in that aspect.) That doesn't change the fact that if I heard someone imply that because of this she's greatly suited to blindly lead or train an island army, it would concern me personally. It's nothing to do with weapons and defense tactics, it's AL and her lack of self-control and nature of needing to control others. It's the fact that I am sensible of the amount of danger they would be in that makes my say so actually.But, no one has asked her to lead or train an army (not that I believe she couldn't - particularly the latter). She was only asked how long it would take. She is qualified to answer that - unless you can point out specific aspects of Iraqi army training (that Sayid had) that Ana did not have which would make it impossible to gauge a timeframe.

It doesn't make you a better shot, but being the best sure shot alive doesn't mean you're prepared for combat. (As for Sayid, it was said last season that he was a soldier as well as a communications officer.) She has a tendency to shoot blindly in a panic, and is apparently as likely to shoot an ally as an enemy - she did so days ago; she's not prepared for a battle. Her aim is fine; she most definitely isn't. It's not a technical issue. Soldiers who embark on a battlefield ill-prepared tend to come out of it the worse for wear; that's been my experience.Anyone enlisted in the Army is a soldier, until Sayid elaborates (or through flashbacks) I maintain that he was an interogator as shown. And, now, a psychologically scarred one at that.

Shooting blindly? She hit her target dead-on (pun intended).:D As likely to shoot an ally?:rolleyes: Nope, never will agree with you on that one. Sayid, on the other hand, willfully shot his commanding officer (a treasonous offense) ... ally?

I'm kindly asking you to refrain from the "if the role had been a male army captain rather than a female ex-cop" remarks. (We all know some people believe our problems with her come down to a case of our own gender/race issues; because we're critical of AL, we're the "haters" (nice banner, btw), but frankly it's insulting and upsetting that there's no way to defend oneself online against what are horribly offensive accusations. I hope you respect that.) "Would Ana's actions have seemed inappropriate if it was a military officer?" is a different question entirely. And in response, once you remove the gender issues, I do believe an army captain would be more suited to do the aforementioned (i.e. lead and train an army) than an ex-cop. Well I guess that almost answers the question. The aforementioned, was in regard to disciplining, not leading or training an army. As for "horribly offensive accusations" ... it was a question. Not an accusation. And "No", I wasn't aware of what others believe your problems with Ana stem from. I was actually alluding to Sayid - not insinuating anything. I have no reason to believe your ill-regard for Ana is gender or racially based. Nor is my acceptance. So let's leave it behind us.

Sorry to disappoint, but my banner (sig?) is neither new (someone else has the same quote too - I'm not sure if it's coincidence or...:confused:) nor did it stem from this, or any other Ana "haters" thread. In truth, I would actually prefer that "the haters" were called something else. It sounds too negative and one dimensional (much like your perceived your target). How about the AAC (Anti-Ana Contingent)?:p

[Scarlett]

In truth, I would actually prefer that "the haters" were called something else. It sounds too negative and one dimensional (much like your perceived your target). How about the AAC (Anti-Ana Contingent)?:p
Haha... love the part about "too negative and one dimensional (much like you perceived your target)." True, and true! I agree that haters/lovers creates a false dichtomy, like negative/positives people. Maybe PALL (Pro AnaL-less Lost)? Who knows....

[Razor]

Haha... love the part about "too negative and one dimensional (much like you perceived your target)." True, and true! I agree that haters/lovers creates a false dichtomy, like negative/positives people. Maybe PALL (Pro AnaL-less Lost)? Who knows....

:) Hey, whatever you guys decide on would work for me. I cringe each time I type "haters". Particularly since I'm not comfortable being lumped in as an "Ana-Lover". :cool:

[juniper]

Yes, I'm clearly not a huge fan of the labels. I'm delighted not to be a lover...but a hater? Seriously. Down with cringe-inducing epithets and titles. I suppose that's why we're both gravitating toward the debate/discuss thread even when the vast majority of the debate/discussion boils down to perspective.

As for the AL moment, I think it was shown for a reason, that he's getting at asking her to be involved a bit more directly (and too directly) than speculating on a time frame and getting weapon training assistance for those who actually need it. Yes, she hit the woman dead-on, but why? Not because she was an enemy, she was just at the wrong place, wrong time (within shooting ra