The Dharma Initiative - Orientation Tape

[papercutbleeds]

Thoughts... on this subject?

[SickLife]

gonna take time to process all this, lol.

we spend 6 days trying to come up wtih stuff, then get it all thrown at us in a few minutes.

[Quiet Tempest]

You guys were right on about "Orientation" relating to Dharma. The Dharma Initiative film seems to be missing some parts, though... Most noticably after talking about not attempting to use the comptuer.. and the man they showed briefly looked oddly familiar... The man in the suit that Jack saw in "White Rabbit", maybe? Weird..

[papercutbleeds]

Haha, i know how u feel... but theres still questions... They defintily need to rewatch that along with me :P

[braedan51]

Isn't Hanso Jin's father-in-law

[aurigus]

I wonder what the "Incident" was? Maybe it was the sickness.

[Raven O'Reilly]

Hey at least we weren't far off of things.

Guess we know the origin of the episode's title now too. lol We're gonna need to disect the tape. Locke is right, "We're gonna have to watch that again."

Oooooo, braedan51, I don't remember. Can anyone remember what Sun's father's name was?

[SickLife]

so are the other stations on the island? he said 'this sector of the island'

[sdbdrummer]

gonna take time to process all this, lol.

we spend 6 days trying to come up wtih stuff, then get it all thrown at us in a few minutes.

nothing in the film said that the world would end if the button wasn't pushed...right? or did i miss that? where did des get the idea the world would end? where did calvin get the idea???

[LAH924]

who is the funder of this project? anyone recognize him in the window?

[leleana]

The tape definitely skipped. I think the skipped part probably had a bunch of information we wish we had.

[wcupmartin6]

We're gonna have to watch that again.

[SickLife]

nothing in the film said that the world would end if the button wasn't pushed...right? or did i miss that? where did des get the idea the world would end? where did calvin get the idea???

nothing was said. i dunno. i doubt there's any powerful missle's or anything on the island. & if that was true, when was the cold war? or that stuff? i dunno if it'd matter anymore.

[aurigus]

I don't think a lot was skipped - I think they said don't try to use the computer for anything else.

[Wumpus]

What I could gather from the film, is that this place is a secret research facility. It only mentions an alarm and the code must be entered every 108 mins. (4+8+15+16+23+42=108)

True, they never say why and the film audio skips when the professor says not to use the computer (for anything else).

[Raven O'Reilly]

Anyone hear the mention of B.F. Skinner. My cobwebby brain recalls that he was a behavioral psychologist.

[LAH924]

i appreciate jack's take on this. an experiment to see if they would actually DO it every 108 minutes.
but if they're all going to die, how is desmond running going to save his butt?!

[Quiet Tempest]

This feels all wrong... Suddenly it's Jack, not Locke, who's acting irrationally.

[Wumpus]

i appreciate jack's take on this. an experiment to see if they would actually DO it every 108 minutes.
but if they're all going to die, how is desmond running going to save his butt?!Basic survival response.

[sdbdrummer]

i appreciate jack's take on this. an experiment to see if they would actually DO it every 108 minutes.
but if they're all going to die, how is desmond running going to save his butt?!

I think everything desmond said from the moment jack walked around the corner was a lie. there was a film, that meant something, but not what he says it does. he was there alright, but I don't think he expected them (jack et el) to get through the hatch...he found his out when the computer died and he took it...he ran...where? to another HATCH!!!!!!!!! sumbitch...i hope i'm not right.

[jjuva13]

the number 108, in regards to dharma.
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/misc/why108.html

[ima420r]

Alver Honzel is the name of the guy standing in the window (the financial backer). Anyone got CC so we can get the correct spelling.

[bamajeep]

more polar bears too :)

[sdbdrummer]

I think everything desmond said from the moment jack walked around the corner was a lie. there was a film, that meant something, but not what he says it does. he was there alright, but I don't think he expected them (jack et el) to get through the hatch...he found his out when the computer died and he took it...he ran...where? to another HATCH!!!!!!!!! sumbitch...i hope i'm not right.


by the way...the whole ana lucia down in the pit...saw that coming.

[dreamcatcher]

Anyone hear the mention of B.F. Skinner. My cobwebby brain recalls that he was a behavioral psychologist.
I remember that from psychology too. :) So is this all one big psych. experiment?

Although I have no idea what's going on because I'm not watching Lost because my Boston programming screwed me over. Keep talking guys, I need to read all the details. *cries*

[Wumpus]

the number 108, in regards to dharma.
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/misc/why108.html
That's interesting... 108 = 6^2 + 6^2 + 6^2 (666)

[sdbdrummer]

That's interesting... 108 = 6^2 + 6^2 + 6^2 (666)


reaching for that one dude

[missbehaven99]

I'm buying desmond's story that he ended up on the island by accident and he has been following this routine ever since...til next week.
Still got 10 min left to go on the episode here in CST.

[Quiet Tempest]

How do you think "Adam & Eve" tie into all this?

[SawyerGirl7]

The guy on the tape said something about the island being used for a study, I think Jack is right that they are the subjects being studied. I don't think anything would have happened if they hadn't fixed the computer. The whole purpose of pushing the button every 180 minutes is simply to see if they will actually comply and push it on schedule. They are all ginnie pigs in some experiment.

[kazm1sh1ma]

I think the name is Hanza if I saw correctly. At the end of the film theres like a Hanza Production screen or something. I'll definitely check over it in a day or two when I get in on my comp.. but somebody's probably got it now.

[andrewbash]

I wish Locke would have rewatched the tape so we could get all the details that were left out due to the projector being all messed up.

[Reema]

Someone said a guy on the film looked familiar to Locke*s father. I don*t have TiVo so I can*t check that out...

[ILoveLost]

Reema I just thought the same thing!

[DeathFromAbove]

Here is a pic of the guy.

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/images/alvarhanso.jpg

[Reema]

That does look like his dad... doesn*t it?

[Sawmill]

Reema I just thought the same thing!


Don't you mean Rhema??

[ShadowsofGotham]

I definetly agree with Jack. If the show is to be explained in a non-fantasy type of manner then I see no way how pushing a button will save the world. That is just how I feel. If indeed it was saving the world then the writers need to have a very good and plausible explanation otherwise this show won't be as good. I really like the idea that this could be a pyshological experiment, the part about putting the numbers into the computer every 108 minutes. So there is some idea about what the hatch is but there is still more mystery. I would of personally liked Jack to not have pushed the button just to see what would of happened but that would take away the mystery or perhaps raise more questions. I liked this episode but the commercials ruined it for me.

[Quiet Tempest]

Yeah, there's a creepy similarity between that image and the man (Jack's father?) in White Rabbit.

[jones]

Here is a pic of the guy.

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/images/alvarhanso.jpg

so do u think this guy is a dr moreau type of guy? i kind of agreed with the idea that someone is watching to see if they comply with pushing the button- some type of human behavior experiment

[ShadowsofGotham]

That does look like his dad... doesn*t it?

Was the name of Locke's father ever mentioned? The person in the picture, he is Alvar Hanso. Although he does somewhat look like Locke's father probably due to the hair.

[8-15-23]

I think Skinner is a psychologist who taught about "learned helplesness". Put a rat in a maze with cheese, he will try and find the cheese. Keep doing this. remove the cheese, the rat will run the maze trying to find it but quit at some point when he realizes there is no cheese hes just stuck in a maze/ skinner was named here.

i think there are 5 pods this one was pod 3of 5 the magnetic pod. im sure there is another pod for "psionics" which is why the others want walt-hes pyschihc. did you see the polar bears for the zoology pod? maybe the monster is an experiment gone wrong.

locke got the best line EVER! WERE GONNA HAVE TO WATCH THIS AGAIN!

and a new number was introduced-540?? what is its significance? (the indian dewd said something abouth spendign your next 540 days here )

[leleana]

Well, personally, the button's been pushed every 108 minutes for the past 3 years. It obviously doesn't kill them, so there's no harm in pushing the button until they know for sure what happens when they don't push it. And they'll probably find out soon, knowing this show.

[Reema]

The pushing the button thing really made me mad. Now someone is going to have to constantly press the button every less than two hours. IT would have been best to just see what happened, because eventually nobody*s going to be around to press the button anyways. I*ll be really mad if it*s a "psychiatric experiment" because that*s really ridiculous and predictable; but on the other hand I don*t think it has anything to do with the end of the world. They answer our questions with more questions. It just drags on and on. :rant: Still love the show though.

[DeathFromAbove]

The guy looks too old to be Locke's father. The video was taken in 1980 according to the copyright at the end.

[ShadowsofGotham]

I think Skinner is a psychologist who taught about "learned helplesness". Put a rat in a maze with cheese, he will try and find the cheese. Keep doing this. remove the cheese, the rat will run the maze trying to find it but quit at some point when he realizes there is no cheese hes just stuck in a maze/ skinner was named here.

i think there are 5 pods this one was pod 3of 5 the magnetic pod. im sure there is another pod for "psionics" which is why the others want walt-hes pyschihc. did you see the polar bears for the zoology pod? maybe the monster is an experiment gone wrong.

locke got the best line EVER! WERE GONNA HAVE TO WATCH THIS AGAIN!

and a new number was introduced-540?? what is its significance? (the indian dewd said something abouth spendign your next 540 days here )

108+108+108+108+108=540. But didn't Desmond say he has been in the hatch for 3 years. 540 days is a year and a half or so. I wonder if someone whom was supposed to get him forget about him and that is why he has been down there for so long.

[ScaryWormGuy]

"Alver Honzel is the name of the guy standing in the window (the financial backer). Anyone got CC so we can get the correct spelling."

Alvar Hanso is the correct spelling... but Sun's father is named Mr. Paik... to answer someone else's thought

[xxclachaxx]

540 is 108 times 5

[ShadowsofGotham]

The pushing the button thing really made me mad. Now someone is going to have to constantly press the button every less than two hours. IT would have been best to just see what happened, because eventually nobody*s going to be around to press the button anyways. I*ll be really mad if it*s a "psychiatric experiment" because that*s really ridiculous and predictable; but on the other hand I don*t think it has anything to do with the end of the world. They answer our questions with more questions. It just drags on and on. :rant: Still love the show though.

Maybe it is predictable, maybe not. But I think it would be a much better solution then to have this button control the fate of the world. That I see as a bad solution. But we know nothing. Still, even with the hatch and Desmond being an experiment, there is still much more to be explained which wouldn't fit in with the psychological experiment idea.

[jones]

so desmond was left down there for more than 540 days.. he said "calvin: brought him down there.. who is calvin? did calvin lose his partner? the orientation tape said they were supposed to have a partner..

[LostWishes22]

Hey, got this off another page www.hansofoundation.com What do you all think???

Besides, maybe Sun's father contributed to this?

"A Brief Survey of Operant Behavior

It has long been known that behavior is affected by its consequences. We reward and punish people, for example, so that they will behave in different ways. A more specific effect of a consequence was first studied experimentally by Edward L. Thorndike in a well-known experiment. A cat enclosed in a box struggled to escape and eventually moved the latch which opened the door. When repeatedly enclosed in a box, the cat gradually ceased to do those things which had proved ineffective ("errors") and eventually made the successful response very quickly."

From the BF Skinner foundation page. Is this definatly an experiment? How many other sectors are on the island? I am starting to believe this 2 or 3 part island idea.

[DeathFromAbove]

Hey, got this off another page www.hansofoundation.com What do you all think???

Its actually, http://www.thehansofoundation.org/ .

[pijo]

I'm scared living so close to UofM now...

[marklap]

540 is 108 times 5

540 (days) x 24 (hours in a day) x 60 (minutes in an hour) = 777600 / 108 = 7200 / 108 = 66.6.......

Good stuff

[8-15-23]

neat did you realize 108 = 6 squared + 6 squared+ 6 squared!!! ITS THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST!

[LOSTMAN]

that site is definitely part of the show.... Planted by the writers. Copyright 2005, giving a link to find out more about his projects but then denying access except to people on the board, having the same picture as the show..... etc..... It gives answers as to what the study that they are doing is about though.... and it is very interesting

[JCald]

Here is a pic of the guy.

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/images/alvarhanso.jpg

Maybe it's just me, but I think the guy actually looks more like Locke than his father.

[jones]

i just looked at the hanso foundation wesite and there is something about "remote viewing" google search remote viewing- it will tell u alot- research started during the cold war... 1970"s....

http://www.irva.org/papers/WhatisRV.html
website about remote viewing... its an experiment...

[LOSTadikt]

[QUOTE=8-15-23]I think Skinner is a psychologist who taught about "learned helplesness". Put a rat in a maze with cheese, he will try and find the cheese. Keep doing this. remove the cheese, the rat will run the maze trying to find it but quit at some point when he realizes there is no cheese hes just stuck in a maze/ skinner was named here.

Skinner was known for his "box" experiments called "Skinner boxes". it was about "learned helplesness" but he put dogs in a box with an electric floor, the dogs get shocked by standing on the floor, all they have to do to stop getting shocked is to simply step over a low divider onto another floor where the floor is not electric. but they just stand there and get shocked thinking that there is no other option. Skinner also raised his daughters mainly out of "boxes" containing perfect living conditions. Any thoughts?

[Vig]

Isn't Hanso Jin's father-in-law

Jin's father-in-law is named Paik. Jin's full name is Jin Soo Kwon.

(That was a good thought, though)

[algriz]

that site is definitely part of the show.... Planted by the writers. Copyright 2005, giving a link to find out more about his projects but then denying access except to people on the board, having the same picture as the show..... etc..... It gives answers as to what the study that they are doing is about though.... and it is very interesting

If you look at the Terms of Use (link at bottom left) the page was definitely created by ABC...boo.

[Amazonagent]

Its actually, http://www.thehansofoundation.org/ .
On the active projects page if you scroll your mouse below the last line the "Dharma Initiative" is visible. But the it doesn't link to anywhere....YET! :eek:

[Madding]

who is the funder of this project? anyone recognize him in the window?

He is Locke’s father !!??
Actor Kevin Tighe.
He drove an ambulance on the 70’s show EMERGENCY
Weird !!??

[ThePolarBear]

I think the couple they were talking about in the film (can't remember the name) might be Adam and Eve. The film said it started with the two of them in the 1970s. That would be 30 years. How old did Jack say the skeletons were? 40 or 50 years. Could be them.

[jones]

"controlled remote viewing" is the answer to the whole show.. too much info on the website to type.. check it out what do u think?http://www.irva.org/papers/WhatisRV.html

[Lostgrl14]

If you look at the Terms of Use (link at bottom left) the page was definitely created by ABC...boo. I don't understand who else would have made this site. Obviously ABC made the site, I just dont know what you could have been thinking, that there was a real Dharma Iniative going on somewhere nad Alvar Hanso just happened to look just like that guy with the same name from Lost. Even if it was not made by ABC then it would just be kinda pointless because it wouldnt give us anything special about the show such as inside pics and stuff. Also, the only way to get to the sight is by clicking the light from the hatch on oceanic815.com so obviously ABC made it. But I guess you were hoping it was real. :confused:

[ace_ryan_icon]

Ok, this is what i gather from the film. Dhrama is NOT responsible for the magnetic pulse coming from the island. But that's the reason they are on the Island. Also, i gather there are a few more Islands with the same research pods i guess on them. And the whole Hatch thing adds another Element to the Island, remember how Desmond said his boat crashed? Could the others have gotten his boat? I would like to know the Incident that happened. Probably either the sickness, or the Others messing around.

[susan74]

Well he probably expected a replacement after those days were up that never came so he just kept on, thinking maybe the world wasn't out there anymore.

But can someone clarify, did he say Calvin or KELVIN? I thought he said Kelvin. I posted this on another thread but given the purpose of this particular station having to do with eletromagnetic fields...this was coincidence?

I would assume each station had something to do with the topics that were discussed in the film but offhand I can't remember them all. And who are in those other 5 hatches? The film was 3 of 6, specifically for that station.

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Thomson.html

[Wolfpig]

My old Lost forum has crashed or something, so pardon the newbie jumping in here with a whopper, but I did a little homework and had to share. Apologies if I have not followed protocol correctly.

1) The Orientation Video said that you had to stay for 540 days in the hatch. That's 108 x 5.

2) The guy who led Desmond into the hatch was named Kelvin. We obviously know Kelvin for the temperature scale, but he also had another theory I found on the 'net:

"Kelvin argued that the key issue in the interpretation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics was the explanation of irreversible processes. He noted that if entropy always increased, the universe would eventually reach a state of uniform temperature and maximum entropy from which it would not be possible to extract any work. He called this the Heat Death of the Universe."

I don't really know what that means, but it might have something to do with the "End of the World" Desmond spoke of if you don't push the button. It also might be important to note that Kelvin is generally regarded as a bone-headed pig who declared in the early 1900s that there was nothing left to be discovered in the world of Physics.

3) Turn of the Screw by Henry James was shown. Quick synopsis:

"In The Turn of the Screw, Henry James creates a masterful psychological thriller, with "the strange and sinister" occurring in the midst of the usual. He engenders a nightmare quality to his tales- an unspoken, ungruesome "sense of evil" that allows the reader to imagine the horror from within. Further, blending the innocence of children with ghostly evil creates a terrifying combination. The terror lies not in the apparitions themselves, but in what is happening to the children; they change from "sweet things" to open liars and mean-spirited little beings.
A particular "turn" is represented by James' young governess, who is frightened by the all-too real daytime hauntings, but continually insists on telling the reader how calm she is. And the most haunting turn of all comes with the final questions left hovering before us: Was the deepening spell actually an emanation from forces beyond the dead? Or was it, in innocent and terrible fact, a manifestation of the young governess' own unconsciously possessive passion for the spirit of Miles - a passion first kindled by the uncle who had "charmed and beguiled" her, and then left abandoned in a lonely country household to spawn its own deadly ghosts within her soul and the souls of those around her? In essence asking, "What is the source of evil?" this tale, written in an eerily slow-moving, deliberate nineteenth-century style, has been called the greatest ghost story ever written."

4) Here's the cool one. A link to the Hanso Foundation. It's placed there by the Lost writers. God this is fun.

www.thehansofoundation.org

5) B.F. Skinner was mentioned. He's the "operant conditioning" guy from our early science classes. Here's the link, pay particular attention to the "Theory" section.

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/skinner.html

6) The book that Desmond was reading was The Third Policeman by Flann O'Brien. Here's the link to it, published in 1999.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156478214X/102-0944898-5473757?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance

[ThePolarBear]

I don't think the Others boat is Desmonds. Mostly because Sawyer said it was a short range boat, which it was. So he would have need to launch it from somewhere close by. Though I can't imagine Desmond being on a bigger boat by himself.

My captioning said that his name was KELVIN.

[typing.monkey]

Random thoughts: The "swan station" - swans mate for life, and if one dies, the remaining partner goes and finds another mate.

Also the psych aspects reminded me of the Stanford Prison Experiment in the 70's:
"What happens when you put good people in an evil place? Does humanity win over evil, or does evil triumph?" http://www.prisonexp.org/

Could Alvar Hanso be an anagram?

[papayakiller]

But can someone clarify, did he say Calvin or KELVIN?

My CC said Kelvin.

[RoXer1]

Let's all remember what Walt said...

"Don't push the button, the button is bad."

(I believe this argument was cleared up on Jimmy Kimmel Live)

[ace_ryan_icon]

Nope. I went through all the possiblites

[Aupps]

What about this Juxtapositional Eugenics Development? As far as I can gather it's breeding of 2 diferent species, might explain the security system

[cemetrygatecrash]

forgive me if i reiterate. i'm just dropping in after not having much time online. but i missed this place and wanted to share what i've been thinking about.

okay, so what is all being studied? or was mentioned as subjects of study during the Dharma Project? (forgive me if i'm a bit off, they rattled them off pretty fast and that film was SHITE quality)

Social Psychology: so okay. studying people in groups. seeing how they survive in panic situations. that is pretty much the whole bleedin crash. or even how they react to frightening situations. like the monster? it could all be elaborate to scare people to see how they handle it.

ParaPsychology: this is a big one! parapsychology is a pretty wide range. it's sorta like studying the unexplained, X Files stuff. things like ghosts---say, Jack's dad? or mind reading....like it sure seems Walt might be able to do.

Animal Biology/Genetics: lemme reiterate.....GIANT FRIGGIN POLAR BEARS IN A JUNGLE

ElectroMagnetics: okay, i hope this doesn't have to be explained. electromagnetics isn't just a concept of compasses not working ((like sayid pointed out)). or plane's dropping from the sky ((uh...flight 815 anyone?)) it's also a biological matter. we all have electromagnetic currents moving through us. some think that raising or lowering these can alter our perception, and the way we are linked to other people.

am i missing some things? how much did I screw this up? i was too excited to pay close enough attention, lol!

[ThePolarBear]

I was thinking that maybe "the incident" the guy in the film talked about had something to do with the security system. But more I think it had to do with the Others. Maybe Dharma created the security system to keep the hatch and the people in it safe.

[lost-insawyer]

I kind of like Jack's theory on the Dharma project. What if their the experiment...someone wants to see how long a person will stay cooped up to press a button?? But then it takes away from the initial need for the Dharma project, doesn't it?

[JustBlaneLost]

I knew as soon as the episode was over, I was going to my video tape to review the orientation film. I knew the logo had some significance, and after studying it for a while I jumped online and researched it. I looked through recent postings here and didn't find anything on this, but forgive me if this has been mentioned.

The outer ring of the Dharma/Swan symbol looks like a representation of the I-Ching. I found a confirming post along these lines at Bureau 42 - http://www.bureau42.com/view/2817

Here is the excerpt I was interested in:

--------------------------------------
Re: holy crap...
posted by octa on September 29, 6:50 am
"Got this from another LOST forum: http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dharmafirstconfirmation3ki.jpg

Some are arguing whether that's a swan or snake in the middle. Also the logo on the shark:

http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=logoonshark8no.jpg

Seems to have a different relief in the middle. Though that could just be due to a blurry picture.

Someone went back and took a shot of the polar bear attacking Walt and it SEEMS to have the logo on it's left shoulder but there isn't a concensus on that."

----------------

So the shark logo is from one of the other 5 pods or research centers ... probably the one concerned with Zoology. So if we extract from the film, does that mean that there is a pod/research center somewhere on the island for studying meteorology ... and another for parapsychology ... etc?

Also, after watching the orientation video with close captioning ... it strikes me as ominous that this Mr. Hanso (who funded the research facilities on the island) made his fortune as a munitions exporter - read: arms dealer?

Blane

[JustBlaneLost]

Sorry, here's the post I meant to reference about the I-Ching, still from http://www.bureau42.com/view/2817:

--------------------------
Re: holy crap...
posted by RandomChance on September 30, 5:44 am
"I didn't spot most of those during the show... but here is all I can add on the emblem: dharma is the name for the collected wisdom of the buddha in buddhism - the knowledge that leads to enlightonment and nirvana. The outer "ring" is a representation of the "I Ching" a very vauge but very popular divianation book in China. You flip a coin or divide yarrow stalks to get different verses then match them up to get something like "Dragon over water/ old man on river bank / the fortress is sieged in mountain" Which you then look up in the copious comentary books. Buddhism is of Indian origin but flourished in China. Later China sects of buddhism developed the idea that, since people were not going "Poof! I'm Enlightned!" anymore we must be in the "last days of the dharma" and that the teachings had become inneffective/corrupted and so other means were neccessary. Does any of this mean anything for Lost? I don't know but its food for thought."

-----------------------------

Blane

[HenryFatass]

Hey all,

Here's my quick transcript of the Orientation video. Feel free to correct or clarify anything you find wrong.

Note: A "*" denotes a crackle or other un-interpretable audio. Anything followed by a "(?)" denotes my interpretation of the audio if the audio was not obvious.

Opening Title screen:

The Dharma Initiative

3 of 6
Orientation

...fades to...

Dharma Logo screen:

Dharma Logo with Swan(?) image in center

Below Logo reads:

Orientation - Station 3 - The Swan

Welcome. I am Dr. Marvin Candle(?) and this is your orientation film for station 3 of the *Dharma(?)* Initiative.

In a moment you will be given a simple set of instructions for how you and your partner will fulfill the responsibilities associated with the station. But first, a little history:

The Dharma Initiative was created in 1970, and is the brainchild of Gerald and Karen DeGrout(?); 2 doctoral candidates at the University of Michigan. Following in the footsteps of visionaries such as B.F. Skinner, imagined a large scale communal research compound where scientists and free-thinkers from around the globe could pursue research in meteorology, psychology, parapsychology, zoology, electromagnetism, and utopian social...*...clusive Danish industrialist and munitions magnate, Alvar Hanso, whose financial backing made their dream of a multi-purpose, social-science research facility a reality.

You and your partner are currently located in station 3, or The Swan, and will be for the next 540 days. Now station 3 was originally constructed as a laboratory, where scientists could work to understand the unique electromagnetic fluctuations emanating from this sector of the island. Not long after the experiments began, however, there was....an 'incident'....and since that time, the following protocol has been observed:

That every 108 minutes, the button must be pushed. From the moment the alarm sounds, you will have 4 minutes to enter the code into the microcomputer processor(?)...*...duction into the program. When the alarm sounds, either you or your partner must input the code. It is highly recommended that you and your partner take alternating shifts. In this manner you will both stay as fresh and alert...*...most importance; that when the alarm sounds, the code be entered correctly and in a timely fashion.

Now DO NOT attempt to use the computer...*...for anythi...

Congratulations! Until your replacements arrive, the future of the project is in your hands.

On behalf of the DeGrouts(?), Alvar Hanso, and all of us at the Dharma Initiative, thank you, namaste, and....good luck.

End Title Screen:

(c) The Hanso Foundation, 1980 All Rights Reserved

-Henry Fatass

[Mairi]

I kind of like Jack's theory on the Dharma project. What if their the experiment...someone wants to see how long a person will stay cooped up to press a button?? But then it takes away from the initial need for the Dharma project, doesn't it?

The old guy standing in the window is def Locke's dad. When Locke is stalking him he sees a security gaurd in his side view mirroe gaurding the house and his dad lives in an expensive high tech house. This leads me to belive he is wealthy and well to do, which tie in with a financial backer of the Dharma experiment. Also throughout the episode it seems like Locke is really attached to what is going on in the hatch. He doesnt want to leave and he keeps saying this is not what is supposed to happen. The only reason someone would say that is if they knew what WAS supposed to happen. You can add to this when Locke fumbles with trying to fix the computer and gets frusturated, I didnt have the captions on while he dropped the tool box but he mutters something to himself and says what am i supposed to do. It is almost as if he left domeone down (his dad) who we already know he is desperate to please and have him accept him. In addition to this when Said says what is this place, Locke has his back turned and smirks when Said says this. It seems as if Locke is pleased that Zaid is impressed with the hatch, which makes me think Locke has a vested interest in it.

that's all i got

[Quiet Tempest]

Do you guys remember the bagua-Dharma logo on the tail of the shark last week? That symbol contained a different icon in its center. Do you think it's part of one of the other "sectors of the island"? From the film, I gather that there are a total of 6 sectors, and Desmond is (was) in sector 3 - Swan.

What do you think?

[Amazonagent]

Do you guys remember the bagua-Dharma logo on the tail of the shark last week? That symbol contained a different icon in its center. Do you think it's part of one of the other "sectors of the island"? From the film, I gather that there are a total of 6 sectors, and Desmond is (was) in sector 3 - Swan.

What do you think?
I belive so. The symbol was different in the middle, what it was is still a mystery.

Damn this show and it's theories! :eek:

[IndyWX78]

The orientation tape talked about replacements coming. Kelvin supposedly dies waiting for his replacement. But if you think about it, Desmond was Kelvin's replacement. Just as Locke/Jack are Desmond's replacement. The computer's working now, Desmond's gone, and Locke/Jack are now sitting there pushing the button. That really sounds like they're his replacements.

Couldn't the same thing have happened to Desmond when he first arrived -Kelvin took off and Desmond was too scared to leave the computer alone?

My first thought was to assume that something had happened to the foundation and the replacements never showed up. But the replacements have showed up, they're just completely ignorant of the fact that they're the replacements.

[Arzt]

Where did Desmond go?

[jOeCooL]

That guy reminds me of alfred hitchcock crazy ass standing in the window like that lol
but this one is like a mad scientist as oposed to a mad director

[Davep]

I wonder what the "Incident" was? Maybe it was the sickness.


In my opinion there was no "incident", there is no explantion given in the film, what so ever. The movie skips, but completely missing such a important part! And then what they make a movie?? HELLO, to instructed them that they must push buttons for ever???? With only enough food for 500 days? But it's been 30 years. Something doesn't add up here.

The scientist who put the people there in the Geo-Dome are f-ing with their heads. This actual happen, in history when Dr Skinner, did mind tests on his own daughter.

Dr. Skinner trained his own daughter to hate and be scared of anything "white" to the point he made his kid scared of Santa Claus. He would have his kid play with a white rabbit, and then had it killed in front of him. He put in daughter in a "box" to test conditioning approaches. The Box was called Skinner Box

So it is perfectly logically that these experiments, which were primarily psychology in nature are the same. Testing to see how long people could be physic'd into pushing buttons.

What does the computer, stop? What ever it is, it would be something the scientist set up. Why not just have a simple switch. Answer, it's all a physic job.

Read some more history
http://www.nndb.com/people/297/000022231/

[honestjoe]

Here is what doesn't make sense. Why would there be an instruction film in the first place? If you are in the hatch, wouldnt you already know what you are down there for? Why would you need to be told all these things about what to do? Why does the tape have to describe the whole project and not just the instructions? I would have assumed that people put in the hatch would know and be a part of the "Dharma Initiative" already, prior to arriving on the island, and subsequently prior to being put in the hatch.

So is the "orientation film" implying that whoever was put in the hatch, had no idea about ANYTHING or any idea about what to do when first arriving (in the hatch)?

[Davep]

Here is what doesn't make sense. Why would there be an instuction film in the first place? If you are in the hatch, wouldnt you already know what you are down there for? Why would you need to be told all these things about what to do? Why does the tape have to describe the whole project and not just the instructions? I would have assumed that people put in the hatch would know and be a part of the "Dharma Initiative" already, prior to arriving on the island, and subsequently prior to being put in the hatch.

So is the "orientation film" implying that whoever was put in the hatch, had no idea about ANYTHING or any idea about what to do when first arriving (in the hatch)?



The experiment was pretty "elaborate"; staged to the point the early human guiena pigs thought they were part of some larger global experiment. Unaware, all along they "were" the experiment. These poor fools were the experiments.

[sylpha]

maybe whoever set up the whole experiment or whatever it is also set it up so planes and boats would crash and there'd be new people arriving, or knew it would happen somehow. Or they were just covering their bases in case something happened to the original people or new people did arrive, who knows.

metaphysical theory: pressing the button "saves the world" because it entails whoever is entering the code and pressing the button to have faith, and faith is what is lacking in people and leading to mankind's downfall. hence the whole symbolic thing with Jack and Desmond being right about his wife and convincing him to have faith again.

[Outback Maverick]

http://www.dharmaindustries.com/

Sorry if it has been posted already, did a quick search.

[beachcomberjim]

Hey, got this off another page www.hansofoundation.com What do you all think???
this site was created by the show, i dont think it is a real foundation, its a plant to give us clues, is waht i think. very intresting and detailed, its like were all playing a role playing game, this show is the best idea ever, they use every tool possible, im gonna look for easter eggs on this site too, my guess, is there might be some.

[diabloroker]

Did anyone get a screencap of the book john locke took out before finding the movie in the back?

[Outback Maverick]

Did anyone get a screencap of the book john locke took out before finding the movie in the back?

http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=737&pos=158

[HenryFatass]

No, but it's the book Desmond said it would be behind:

The Turn of the Screw by Henry James

[LockeandRoll]

I haven't read all of the posts so I don't know if this has been said:

~540 days to spend in the hatch

540=108x5

The creators have said that "5" will play a significant part in the story

[paradigm_shift]

my first post - hope it's informative.

ok - i was a psych major and there's a few things that are interesting, as far as the island being a psych experiment. overall, the island seems to be far too large and uncontrolled to be a true psych experiment, but this is tv, and observational studies have yielded a lot of useful information about behavior. that being said, here's the few things i picked out from orientation video..

1. bf skinner - father of behavioral psych, he did a lot of stimulus and response stuff, also studied a lot of instrumental behavior (a light signals a rat to push a lever for food reward). the skinner box is an apparatus to condition and test the behavioral response, i don't think there is any validity to the statement that skinner put his daughter in some box that was later named the skinner box. could all the island inhabitants be getting conditioned to various stimuli (monsters, others, etc) to watch what their response is?

2. i thought the orientation tape was somewhat reminiscent of the milgram experiments - where you follow a figure of authority's instructions no matter what, even if you know that you are consciously hurting someone. desmond is blindly following the orientation guy (with a little coaching from kelvin), even though he has no idea what the consequences of his action or inaction are.

3. the stanford prison experiment still sends shivers down my spine. normal college students divided into two groups (prison guards and prisoners) are told act out their specific roles in a stanford basement. the prison guards become incredibly violent, almost as if they are real prison guards dealing with real convicted criminals. anyhow, i'm not quite sure how that fits into the island, since nobody was assigned roles they didn't want (except for everybody being in the role of a stranded plane crash survivor on a wacky island. ;) ).

my .02

[Davep]

My guess, this is not only an experiment on the characters, but ALSO a experiment on the television viewer. Screwing with their heads with all the number relationships.

[Medicineman]

Well we have to think about why Desmond is so terrified. I think he is too intelligent to be afraid of the button without knowing more than has been revealed. Locke obviously knows a lot more than has been revealed.

[Davep]

Well we have to think about why Desmond is so terrified. I think he is too intelligent to be afraid of the button without knowing more than has been revealed. Locke obviously knows a lot more than has been revealed.


Look at experiments scientist have done on behavior modification. Maybe the drugs he's been shooting up over all those years, makes it even easier to control him.

[CheshireJessica]

First of all, where is Desmond running to? Does he think that just the hatch will blow up? Here is a guy who supposedly has lived in a hatch for three years. Taken down by Kelvin, who dies???

He isn't happy to hear there are other people, he just run off.

He thinks the world will end... I could be wrong. Because he just runs off, does this mean he has a boat? Or does this mean he thinks that only the hatch will blow up. That is the only logical conclusion I can come up with.

He is running away because in his mind this hatch will blow up, because if you think the world is going to end period, and you know you can't get off the islan, then why not stay to help and to see if these people could possibly help you get off the island.

How in THE WORLD would the computer know if another person put in the code, meaning locke making jack put in the code. It makes NO sense. Is it a mystical computer that will know through some Fingerprint analysis on the keyboard that it is Jack who is inputing the code? And if someone is watching to make sure he is the one puting in the code, then what is the guy who is watching going to do, blow them up if they don't? Chances are if someone is that crazy to blow the hatch up with people in it, then you can pretty much write your chances off about getting off the island.

Akk the sudden he gets brave with 8 minutes to go, he just didn't make a run for it in three years right after he put the code in.

And HELLO, we are talking about a majorly outdated computer. What is it hooked up to, what device that could potentially "kill the world" if it isn't pushed within 4 minutes. Does it have some secret ancient internet connection. Is it connected to a bomb? Or, is it JUST PLUGGED INTO THE WALL!!! I am not thinking this computer has wireless networking.

And what is with them keeping the secret. That is so mean, we aren't talking about a Mob, but 40 people, I think that after being through a plane crash they deserve a fresh shower (like Kate was doing) and some food. Who made them leader of the island world where they decide what to tell and not to tell the other castaways.

Awe, this just was kind of a let down. A psychological Experiment??? What does that have to do with Desmond worrying if the world is still out there, How long did kelvin live? He took the meds... why? What does HE think they are. Desmond doesn't make sense... am I the only one who is thinking... WTF?

[Just4Robin]

Could Alvar Hanso be an anagram?


Hanso...Han Solo. ;)

Juxtapositional Eugenics Development Institute...J.E.D.I. LOL!

Gotta love the Star Wars fans.

[Medicineman]

You bring up an interesting subject. It's an old 80's era computer. No internet or wireless. It's connected to the timer......what is the timer connected to? It's obviously hard wired.....follow the line....whats the destructive device?

[Rufus]

540? ah, how about 5 times 108?

[Mossman]

The doctor on the tape pretty confirms that they ARE on an island. he said it himself in the video.

[sylpha]

maybe there is no wire..maybe someone is just secretly monitoring them and will set something off if it runs out? although the should be able to find some monitoring device in that case...

[Rez]

You guys should really do some research...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_Box

B. F. Skinner was a pioneer in some regard (even mentioned in the orientation film) and I think is a very key point that's made. He created a concept called a Skinner Box, or what some refer to it as. Basically it was designed to study the effects of conditioning, environments, expsoure, etc. within a contained and controlled three dimensional space.

One good example of the research would be the The numbers/button. If you tell someone something will happen, and not specifically, but that, say they need to punch in a set of numbers and hit execute within a certain amount of time, they'll do it. Think of it as like the Mouse that knows which button to push in his cage to get cheese.

The Dharma Initiative:

I believe the Dharma initiative started out as an experiment of an experiment. Real scientists conducting real research, withina controlled environment, that is conditioned, and given specific conditioned tasks, and studies to continue rigourously, and thus, being studied themselves.

A few reasons for this.

Dharma Secion 3 "The Swan"

At the beginning of the film you will see this, along with "Orientation 3 of 5" which tells me that there are more, 5 to be exact. 5 specific enviornments spread throughout the island. In the orientation film, they mention studies of psychology, paraspychology, electro magnetism...and even zoology (polar bears and sharks anyone?)

Something obviously happened, something bad, and the project, forgotten, or abandoned, or is still being continued. But I also believe this to be true, considering Section 3 is also called "The Swan". This leads me to believe that the other areas are named differently, and have a logo similar to the Swan Dharma, but slightly different, signifying which research area is which...which would explain why the logo on the Shark is very different from the Swan.

But I think this is like one of those Dolls from Russia you always see. Where there is a doll, inside a bigger doll and that doll is inside of another doll and another, etc etc.

Also...

Anyone else think that maybe...the numbers are more of a date than anything?

4 years, 8 months, 15 days, 23 hours, 42 seconds?

[CheshireJessica]

You bring up an interesting subject. It's an old 80's era computer. No internet or wireless. It's connected to the timer......what is the timer connected to? It's obviously hard wired.....follow the line....whats the destructive device?


Hmmm... what are the tapes in the background (The huge reels behind the computer)... Is the computer even hooked up to the timer, I guess if it contols the timer, but you are right, just follow the line. Well, I would think one of the group would think of that, they all can't be as dumb as Desmond, although I don't think Desmond is really as naive and umb as he was trying to portray. He knew way more then her was letting on.

[sylpha]

hmm now that I think about it you might be onto something. Maybe, Desmond knows that entering the code and pressing the button causes the hatch to self-distruct. The reason he's never tried to run and not press the button is because he thought there was a disease on the island that would kill him. But then Locke came and told him they were plane crash survivors and that no one was sick. At first, he probably wouldn't have believed him, and when kate shot the computer, he was so used to having to do the code and his brain was so wired to the habit, he was panicking and had to fix it. Then when he realized he couldn't he probably also thought, well hey if these people are alive maybe the disease really is gone and I can try to make a break for it. I dunno why he'd lie about it though, maybe he really is involved with the experiment somehow.

[paradigm_shift]

How in THE WORLD would the computer know if another person put in the code, meaning locke making jack put in the code. It makes NO sense. Is it a mystical computer that will know through some Fingerprint analysis on the keyboard that it is Jack who is inputing the code? And if someone is watching to make sure he is the one puting in the code, then what is the guy who is watching going to do, blow them up if they don't?

i think the point of that scene was a ego fight - jack knows locke will push the button. jack says that nothing will happen, but locke seems to be pretty sure that jack wants to push the button too. so he sorta forces jack to agree with him indirectly.

And HELLO, we are talking about a majorly outdated computer. What is it hooked up to, what device that could potentially "kill the world" if it isn't pushed within 4 minutes. Does it have some secret ancient internet connection. Is it connected to a bomb? Or, is it JUST PLUGGED INTO THE WALL!!! I am not thinking this computer has wireless networking.

the technology necessary to trigger explosives is not very advanced at all. if the computer doesn't get the input it needs, a signal is sent to some bomb, telling it to explode. or, a continuous signal being sent to a bomb telling it not to blow up is interrupted. it's a matter of connecting a wire from the computer to a detonator, and 5 lines of computer code, if that. even if the wmd, let's say, isn't on the island, that little signal gets broadcast somewhere via the radio tower, somewhere that controls the weapons that will destroy the world. it's just a computer controlled light switch, if this is indeed what happens when the timer runs to zero.

And what is with them keeping the secret. That is so mean, we aren't talking about a Mob, but 40 people, I think that after being through a plane crash they deserve a fresh shower (like Kate was doing) and some food. Who made them leader of the island world where they decide what to tell and not to tell the other castaways.

now that's just part of the drama, isn't it? ;)

[CheshireJessica]

You guys should really do some research...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_Box

B. F. Skinner was a pioneer in some regard (even mentioned in the orientation film) and I think is a very key point that's made. He created a concept called a Skinner Box, or what some refer to it as. Basically it was designed to study the effects of conditioning, environments, expsoure, etc. within a contained and controlled three dimensional space.

One good example of the research would be the The numbers/button. If you tell someone something will happen, and not specifically, but that, say they need to punch in a set of numbers and hit execute within a certain amount of time, they'll do it. Think of it as like the Mouse that knows which button to push in his cage to get cheese.

The Dharma Initiative:

I believe the Dharma initiative started out as an experiment of an experiment. Real scientists conducting real research, withina controlled environment, that is conditioned, and given specific conditioned tasks, and studies to continue rigourously, and thus, being studied themselves.

A few reasons for this.

Dharma Secion 3 "The Swan"

At the beginning of the film you will see this, along with "Orientation 3 of 5" which tells me that there are more, 5 to be exact. 5 specific enviornments spread throughout the island. In the orientation film, they mention studies of psychology, paraspychology, electro magnetism...and even zoology (polar bears and sharks anyone?)

Something obviously happened, something bad, and the project, forgotten, or abandoned, or is still being continued. But I also believe this to be true, considering Section 3 is also called "The Swan". This leads me to believe that the other areas are named differently, and have a logo similar to the Swan Dharma, but slightly different, signifying which research area is which...which would explain why the logo on the Shark is very different from the Swan.

But I think this is like one of those Dolls from Russia you always see. Where there is a doll, inside a bigger doll and that doll is inside of another doll and another, etc etc.

Also...

Anyone else think that maybe...the numbers are more of a date than anything?

4 years, 8 months, 15 days, 23 hours, 42 seconds?

If it was a date, then it would change at some point. If Daneille has been there for 16 years, and she heard the same number over a transmission, then it couldn't be a date, except maybe a date of a future event.

The Skinner box was a box where he would see how long it took a rat, cat, mouse, etc. to figure out they were getting duped into thinking there was a prize. No bad consequence. Then he did research on how long it would take for them to continue the right pattern of events that would get them their reward.

The whole skinner box with his kid was journilism gone wild. His daughter is alive and well. The Skinner box was nothing more than a glorified port-a-crib. Istead of a million he thought it be easier to have a crib climate controlled... etc. etc.

Desmond has made no sense. If he thinks the world will end, no amount of running on an island when you don't know where you are going is going to help, unless you know the consequences. And, he asked if they were sick, he took the meds... he obviously knows more.

There could be a signal, but from a computer working in Unix? Do you mean a sound signal? Well then you put in a little computer code, and voila, you have insta-code. When I was a kid there was a game I made up on my commadore (hey, don't laugh kiddies, it was the latest and greatest at the time ;) )Well, if you created an equation for the computer to follow, it would continue in a loop, and every, lets say 20 minutes, it would start over, or you could totally screw up your computer and loop it so that it doesn't stop until you mom gets ticked and pulls the plug. (Oops, having flashbacks, j/k) But seriously, it would be VERY easy to input :type: repeating code with the same numbers at 108 minute intervals, even on an ancient computer like that. I can't believe that sucker would be running after so many years... Or is it more advanced in an old shell. Desmond was there supposedly for only 3 years. And if there is a tower, than Sayid could find it and send a distress call. He was able to get the trans-somethingorother to work, but didn't have enough battery to hold the signal. My point???

If there is a signal being tranmitted, than he would know by using the trans-something or other.



Psychological testing... :censored: imho

[enraged]

My thoughts on the previous ideas.

Why does Desmond run? I believe it has to do with the fact that now there are other people here so he doesn't have to worry about being the one to press the button. So long as he gets away, maybe he can get on with his life, leaving the new people to do it.

I think that Locke makes Jack push the button because he doesn't want to be in this alone, making Jack realize that it might be important, means Jack may feel as if he has to stay too.

[Mossman]

What exactly IS The Dharma Initiative? The Hanso Foundation is a research facility but how are Dharma industries associated with it?

[Medicineman]

But the real question is why would Dharma want to destroy the world? They are portrayed as a bunch of scientists exploring psychology to zoology. Something happened over time that got out of control possibly creating the need for control and concealment. Were the six areas of experimentation seperate from one another or working together for unified goal?

[Rez]

If it was a date, then it would change at some point. If Daneille has been there for 16 years, and she heard the same number over a transmission, then it couldn't be a date, except maybe a date of a future event.

The Skinner box was a boc where he would see how long it took a rat, cat, mouse, etc. to figure out they were gettung duped into thinking there was a prize. No bad consequence. And he would research how long it would take for them to continue the right pattern of events that would get them their reward.

The whole skinner box with his kid was journelism gone wild. His daughter is alive and well. The Skinner box was nothing more than a glorified port a crib. Istead of a million blankets, would it be easier to have a crib climate controlled... etc. etc.

Desmond has made no sense. If he thinks the world will end, no amount of running on an island when you don't know where you are going is going to help, unless you know the consequences. And, he asked if they were sick, he took the meds... he obviously knows more.

There could be a signal, but from a computer working in Unix? Do you mean a sound signal? Well then you put in a little computer code, and voila, you have insta0code. When I was a kid there was a game I made up on my commadore (hey, don't laugh kiddies, it was the latest and greatest at the time ;) )Well, if you created an equation for the computer to follow, it would continue in a loop, and every, lets say 20 minutes, it would start over, or you could totally screw up your computer and loop it so that it doesn't stop until you mom gets ticked and pulls the plug. (Oops, having flashbacks, j/k) But seriously, it would be VERY easy to look code, even on an ancient computer like that. And if there is a tower, than Sayid could find it and send a distress call. He was able to get the trans-somethingorother to work, but didn't have enough battery to hold the signal. My point???

If there is a signal being tranmitted, than he would know by using the trans-something ot other.



Psychological testing... that would be a sucky storyline. imho

Now granted the numbers being a date/time sequence...sure, I got that, was just a random thought spilling out of my head.

But you pretty much ignored alot of the points I made to backup possible "simple" theories. It's like you only read small parts and regurgitated some of it.

I think think the plot is about psychology...not sure where you got that one.

[Mossman]

The shark definatly had a DIFFERENT logo. remember, the Swan station was for electromagnetic testing. The logo on the shark is probably for the ZOOLOGY station.

The strange weather patterns also hint that the meteorology station is also on that island.

I assume all 6 are on that island.

[Terabit]

I think this quote explains a lot " large scale communal research compound where scientists and free-thinkers from around the globe could pursue research in meteorology, psychology, parapsychology, zoology, electromagnetism, and utopian social...*..." I mean, meteorolgy, could explain the plane crash, locke predicting the weather ( due to it being on a predetermined schedule), the black rock being so far in, storm tidal wave, tornado. Parapsychology has a direct tie in to Walt and a few other happenings. Zoology, been said polar bears and sharks. Electromagnetism, whatever is in that room which has been sealed is my explaination for the incident, it is quite obvious that the corridor was not always sealed off. I for one would like to see what's behind there. pretty sure it may tie in with the Hanso and E.T. projects.. The whole show is a psycholgical mind bend, and I haven't a clue what the last one would tie in. but so far that's what I have been thinking.

[Rez]

The shark definatly had a DIFFERENT logo. remember, the Swan station was for electromagnetic testing. The logo on the shark is probably for the ZOOLOGY station.

That's exactly what I am saying, and I agree. I doubt they would mention these very specific and directed hints to the viewer (such as B.F. Skinner, etc) to confuse them. They were being very specific.

[Rez]

That's exactly what I am saying, and I agree. I doubt they would mention these very specific and directed hints to the viewer (such as B.F. Skinner, etc) to confuse them. They were being very specific.

It was probably branded with the Dharma logo that coincides with that research team.

[Mossman]

But the real question is why would Dharma want to destroy the world? They are portrayed as a bunch of scientists exploring psychology to zoology. Something happened over time that got out of control possibly creating the need for control and concealment. Were the six areas of experimentation seperate from one another or working together for unified goal?

is there proof that their goal is to end the world? as far as I know, the doc on the tape didn't mention anything about it being the end of the world. Desmond did yes, but maybe it's just what he assumes? maybe he knows more then what the tape mentioned?

[Turkish]

I think that Locke makes Jack push the button because he doesn't want to be in this alone, making Jack realize that it might be important, means Jack may feel as if he has to stay too.

Lol I thought Locke thought Jack was lying about the number being 42 and that he wanted Jack to press the button because then it would be all Jack's doing and he would not be involved in any of it. I also think he was setting Jack up to be his Partner in pushing the button. I love all your ideas guys, god I love this show.

[CheshireJessica]

My thoughts on the previous ideas.

Why does Desmond run? I believe it has to do with the fact that now there are other people here so he doesn't have to worry about being the one to press the button. So long as he gets away, maybe he can get on with his life, leaving the new people to do it.

I think that Locke makes Jack push the button because he doesn't want to be in this alone, making Jack realize that it might be important, means Jack may feel as if he has to stay too.

Yeah, it was crazy that he did press execute. As if the computer knew...

I am NOT puting you down, but Desmond is in the middle of an island in the middle of the ocean... he can't get very far to make a life. Also, where did he say he came from. Man, they should have held him hostage and made him talk.

Very Interesting... can't wait for next weeks show.

Funny Note: I am watching this with my husband. I was getting up to get something to drink, so told him to pause the show when it came back on (gotta love Tivo), he said he didn't have to and to take my time, the show only advances reveals 5 minutes of plot an hour.

[Turkish]

I just have to say this is the best show in a LONG time, can anyone else name a show on in the last 5-10 years that had such theories and forums and all kinds of people wondering what the hell is going on besides maybe the X-Files? Twin Peaks was crazy but that was awhile ago.

[sylpha]

I think we just needed a show like this since there hasn't been one in awhile...maybe theres really not that much to it, we just want there to be, and the writers and producers are seizing on that?

[CheshireJessica]

Rez, I seriously was not trying to discount you. I am spending so much time thinking of my own theories and editing them, that I am like wtf, and I mean about tonights show? I know its a show, but sometimes the characters are doing anything but making sense.

I don't think you think it is a pyschology experiment. I think it is a psychology experiment of sorts, and I am now thinking it is another conspiracy theory plot really burns me up. But that is my personal take on it.

And as a viewer, it is just crazy to me that these people would not be checking this stuff out. I mean like seeing how everything is connected. But, this is about a group of people who have control issues in that everyone thinks they are.

I am going to keep reading, because there is alot of insight from everyone on the boards.

[Eksynyt]

This show more than any other by far has created, quite possibly, the most outstanding fan-following ever. Plus it gets watched by so many people. Everyone I have shown it to gets hooked on it, no exceptions.

As for Dharma...I bet that each season will now dive into one of the 6 sectors of Dharma's projects on the island. This is how the show will really change. It's not about surviving anymore...it's about learning what all of this stuff means. In the end, once all of the sectors are figured out, then the island will be revealed as whatever it truly is. I DO believe that several of these "experiments" have gone out of control though. This show keeps getting better and better!!!

[d-MoN]

You guys should really do some research...
<..>
4 years, 8 months, 15 days, 23 hours, 42 seconds?

You guy should really not forget the 16

[kittenca717]

I have some insight. What's funny is that I used to study Buddhism and everything is starting to sound familiar. The tape they watched about the island being a research facility makes sense. They showed the polar bears for zoology, they talked about psychoanalysis, (perhaps that's why the wanted Walt because he may be psychic), magnetic fields...etc.

The Dharma is a Eastern religious term meaning "the way of higher truths". Dharma has everything to do with living in balance, i.e. the black and white references? Ying and yang? The tape talking about a "2 team effort"? Locke hesitating before he presses execute on the computer and makes Jack do it and says it's a "team effort". Also remember that Desmond has Locke put the numbers in and for some reason Locke can't input them again. Someone else need to take over.

I think Hurley is up to alot of this. When Locke typed in "32" instead of "42" Hurley freaked out until he saw Locke's mistake and then suddenly said it was ok until Jack cam in with the correct number.

Just a little insight.

[AshWalker]

Why the protocol is a big question for me. After the 'incident' (sickness) they but in the protocol. Is there one at each station? If it really was to 'end the world,' man did they drop the ball by abandoning the project. Assuming the foundation website is canon, then they are still around and still aware of the Dharma Initiative. But they may still have abandoned it.

Say back in the late 70s, the incident occurres. They evacuate most of the Island. But they still need to contain whatever happened there. Let's, for the sake of arguement, say the 'incident' is the sickness. They don't want to give up on the Island, but they can't let the sickness (or rogue security system or whatever) get off. So they make sure they have two people there. If they both die or can't plug in the numbers, then the protocol cleanses the Island. But why put the fate of the world in two people's hands? The only person who has told us that the fate of the world is at sake is Desmond... and he's probably a bit bonkers.

This is assuming that the whole thing ISN'T still an operating experiment... which ofd course we can't assume. Heck, we can't assume anything.

And I think Ethan Rom (Other Man) was Kelvin. Yeah, Desmond said Kelvin was dead and certainly didn't know about Charlie shooting him, but if Kelvin went outside for a smoke, Des sure would assume he was dead. It's not like he could go look for him.

And The Others? Perhaps staff of the other stations?

[AshWalker]

Well, it's not like Des had to watch the thing very often...
If the duo is there to protect the rest of the world from the 'sickness' then they may have left them an array of firearms to protect themselves.

[Terabit]

I don't think the computer stops the island from cleansing itself, the incident I believe is something more than that. If it was as simple as don't put the code in and the problem is solved this would have never been an issue. I think the the code being inputed prevents whatever is behind the boarded and cemented corridor from getting loose, into the island and/or world.

[Colonel_Kurtz]

Don't forget that the survivors "aren't the survirvors they thought they were" according to season 2's pitch.

Maybe the end of the world is coming and they have been chosen as a group of survivors for mankind by a kind of sectarian organization... like in the Noah's ark story.

[evrylockhasakey]

does anybody remember the episode where lock, gives a compass to sayid (i think is sayid) anyway the important bit is that the compass is out by a few degrees, I'm no expert on electromagnets, but i believe a big electromagnet could have this effect on a compass, and there is a link on the hanso web page about electromagnets, also Walt clearly has a "mental ability" could this be why he is wanted by the others, could it be to do with the remote viewing link?

[Marcia]

who is the funder of this project? anyone recognize him in the window?

YES! I think it was Jack's father!

[Marcia]

I remember that from psychology too. :) So is this all one big psych. experiment?

Although I have no idea what's going on because I'm not watching Lost because my Boston programming screwed me over. Keep talking guys, I need to read all the details. *cries*

I feel for you bud, I saw the Sox on and thought, "Man there are gonna be a lot of Mass Lost fans who are BUMMED" You gotta go to WMUR in NH...channel 9 on the old rabbit ears!! ;-)

[sugar_slayer]

ok i got it 5x108 = 540

dear god i just read thru 10 pages and do you have any idea how many times i read that.
people need to read what others have posted.

i have no idea what the hell this all has to do with everything, it is just more and more questions and more and more reasons for us to psycho-analyze every little thing.

yes im sure there are more hatches, the pattern of the i-ching lines around the dharma symbol has some hidden meaning as to where the hatches are on the island (reaching here)

and i still refuse to believe that there was actually a sickness or disease

[Xena_Lost]

I watched the orientation tape part several times last night and was curious as to the parts that sort of skip as to what was possible cut out if anything? I am glad to know that the island was part of some sort of experiment so that was answered, but could the island have gone haywire and taken on a life of it's own and mutated so to speak?

And what happened to Kelvin? Did he die of natural causes or go out in the jungle and meet his fate? Questions answered and new ones appear!

[trace63]

The male and female scientist in the film look like younger versions of the white haired lady and man with a beard that were on the boat that took walt.

[Xena_Lost]

The male and female scientist in the film look like younger versions of the white haired lady and man with a beard that were on the boat that took walt.

One more thing to look at tonite when I watch it again. Ta for that!

[AllRoadsLeadHere]

It almost sounds like one of the parts that gets cut out is where he says "Now DO NOT attempt to use the computer...*...for anythi..." - perhaps "anything else" or "any other purpose."

[Xena_Lost]

I am going to have to watch with closed captioning on; I am so focused on things behind the scenes that I miss the story in front.

[pftsobfreak]

This is too confusing. Each week, they give us 7 more mysteries about those friggin numbers!

[Xena_Lost]

We still don't have an answer on the numbers eithers! Yes, they are a code, but how the hell did Lenny, Hurley, etc. get them in their head?

[lost_momma]

Of course, we all know that John Locke and Rousseau were philosophers. Below is some info on the two men. I like that Rousseau called man "noble savages." Kind of goes along with what we're seeing here.

I think Jack is absolutely right - this is just an experiment in human behavior. Now they're locked in (no pun intended) to pushing that damn button every 108 minutes!

Kudos, BTW, to all of you who were right on the whole Dharma-swan thing.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/

http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96jun/rousseau.html

Oh, yeah, one other thing. What was the name of the book that the film was behind? I don't think anything on this show is coincidence. Why make a big deal out of the name of the book?

[Ariah81]

I was wondering about the name of the station: Swan. It has an animal representation, true. So what are the 4 (or 5) other stations? Whay this one is called 'Swan'?...

Here's one thing I found:

In 1879 Edison and Joseph Swan independently invented practical lights that use electricity. With this invention, electricity moved into the home, where the many discoveries of the 19th century soon found application.

Another guy who invented a light bulb... And made a step towards the discoveries of electro-magnetism... The very thing studied in the Swan station.

A farfetching thing, but untill we get another shot of the Dharma logo from another station, we can only wonder.

[Funktional]

I didn't see anything here covering it, but am I the only on that thought they saw Sayid in that "Orientation" film? The part where they talk about electromagnetic experimentation there is a guy doing an experiment that looks very similar to Sayid. Anyone who Tivo'd or taped it can you take a look at that part again and just confirm?

Thanks

[MarchMama]

Lurker here...
A few pages back someone mentioned how they thought Locke had more vested in the Hatch, due to his behavior...

Well, what stroke me as odd was how he was standing there while they were trying to fix the computer, and he asked "Can you fix it?" (I forgot the exact answer to it) But then he also asked "Don't you want to know why?" (Answer: I'm sure you'll tell me after we fixed it or something to that effect)

So, it appears Locke DOES know why...wether that is cause he studied the tape, or cause he's behind it, but it does appear he knows

JM2C

[andrewbash]

I think Jack is absolutely right - this is just an experiment in human behavior.

Than whats the reason for a security system that eats people and destroys rafts.

[*Pauly*]

It's Alver Hanso, a swedish guy who funded the project. The end of the tape said 1980. I'm really glad they showed us the background of the hatch it seems a lot to give away though. I guess we know why there are polar bears on the island now.

[AllRoadsLeadHere]

Did anyone realize that the hanso logo (the "H") as it is tilited resembles a syringe -

any thoughts on that?

[buffyfan145]

This did answer a lot of questions, but there are 4 other big questions, along with many smaller ones, that they haven't answered yet. Like what is "the monster"?, who are "Adam and Eve" (the bodies from the caves)?, who are "the Others"?, and what do "they" want?. I think that this was a cool way to reval what the hatch is!!!! Also, on the film, what was the "incident" that the scientist was talking about???? That totally made me think of "the others".

[PennsylvaniaPete]

I think the Others might be people from the back of the plane, who somehow have been on the island much longer then our usual cast.

[Ariah81]

How about...

The footage was enlisting the areas of study for 'scientists and free-thinkers' and one of those was 'utopian society'. What if they did try to create an utopian society on an island and it went all Lord of the Flies to become the Others? Maybe the Dharma founders (Jerald and Carol, kind of flower-children looking people...) were the first ones to settle on the Island, becoming Adam and Eve. But an Incident happened.

A society with no ties to the outside world, but governed by weird rules, passed down from father to son, (and these rules would be the 'Orientation' scripts from other stages) . They are civilised (sort of), they use techincal appliances from other Dharma stations... And Walt, being a psychic of some sort, is taken away as the 'Orientation' stated that gifted, special people should be confined in one place...

And what if pushing the button uses the magentic field that is somehow the strongest in this one part of the Island, to cloak the Island and the experiment from the outside world?

[Blakelyn]

But the plane crashed all at the same time, so they can't have been there longer. I dont think the people who found Sawyer, Mike and Jin are "The Others". They are the other survivors, and they are just as scared as the original survivors are. We think they are "The Others", and they think Sawyer, Jin, and Mike are "The Others".

[ivelina]

I liked this episode but the commercials ruined it for me.

Ahhh!!!! I totally agree.. The commercials are killing me... by the time you come back the mood is gone, the tension is dissipated and their look to me like their are overreacting and over dramatizing their actions... they start looking retarded b/c I’m not scared anymore.... I HATE IT. :confused:

[Turd Ferguson]

I watched the orientation tape part several times last night and was curious as to the parts that sort of skip as to what was possible cut out if anything? I am glad to know that the island was part of some sort of experiment so that was answered, but could the island have gone haywire and taken on a life of it's own and mutated so to speak?

And what happened to Kelvin? Did he die of natural causes or go out in the jungle and meet his fate? Questions answered and new ones appear!

Kelvin hauled ass after he got Desmond accustomed to plugging in the numbers.

The whole experiment angle makes sense: Desmond is an unwitting subject the same way that Kelvin was before him.

Perhaps the Dharma society or corporation can somehow arrange for new subjects to be introduced to the island every 540 days. Or maybe the "540 days" period is meaningless and only meant to induce feelings of hopelessness in the subject who's sitting there putting in the numbers.

Three things that stick with me after last night's episode:

1. If Desmond's been there for more than 3 years, how could there have been more food stored in the pantry? The shelves appeared to be full now. Has he been recently restocked?

2. If the copyright on the orientation film is truly 1980, then why is it a film and not a VHS or Betamax tape? Projectors like that were retro even in 1980. VHS and Betamax were both introduced in the 70s:

1975 - Sony introduced in November in the U.S. the Betamax consumer VCR (console only) for $2295 with one-hour 1/2-inch tape cassettes for $15.95. Sony sought to created a standardized format, as it had done with the U-matic in 1969, by getting 7 other companies to agree to produce machines that would play the Beta cassettes.

1976 - JVC introduced in October in Japan the VHS format VCR for $885.

(http://history.acusd.edu/gen/recording/notes.html#video)

3. If Desmond was so desperate to see somebody--anybody!--then why would he go into defensive mode as he did? Is he just strung out from lack of sleep? Or has he had encounters with violence on the island?

[treidy]

and a new number was introduced-540?? what is its significance? (the indian dewd said something abouth spendign your next 540 days here )

540 is 108 x 5. There are 5 pods right?

[JustBlaneLost]

This did answer a lot of questions, but there are 4 other big questions, along with many smaller ones, that they haven't answered yet. Like what is "the monster"?, who are "Adam and Eve" (the bodies from the caves)?, who are "the Others"?, and what do "they" want?. I think that this was a cool way to reval what the hatch is!!!! Also, on the film, what was the "incident" that the scientist was talking about???? That totally made me think of "the others".


I have been wondering if the 6 research pods in the different sectors of the island tie into other plot threads entirely. For instance, was one of them responsible for the radio signal that was rebroadcast over and over again; the signal that both Danielle Rousseau's (guest-star Mira Furlan) team, as well as Twoomey and his partner Lenny (whom Hurley got the numbers from) intercepted.

And bearing in mind that Hanso is/was a munitions magnate, is it possible that one of the hidden goals of the research centers was to develope weapons? Could the Zoology center have been developing a bio-weapon/virus? Could that have been responsible for the "sickness" that Rousseau's team experienced? Is that the incident - an viral outbreak inducing madness in some people on the island? That would certainly cause the implementation of different protocols.

Also, the teaser that showed Jin speaking English ... everybody is speculating that maybe he knew English all along. I find it hightly unlikely, as there have been several life-and-death moments where he would have communicated with his castaway mates if he could have. But what if something that these research centers were working on could allow you to learn another language instantly. Or perhaps something else happens that could change your personality/knowledge base like that. I mention this because I found this at http://www.thetailsection.com/

----------------------

http://www.thetailsection.com/images/zombiewalt.jpg

Above is an actual screencap from episode 6 of (season 2) lost. To see the corresponding script page it represents go to http://www.oceanicflight815.com and press the bar code, then enter theislandiswaiting. You'll get a very spoilerish piece of script.

The episode is being directed by George Romero, (Land of the Dead), and will aired as a Halloween special.

This is all fake by the way. (Except for the weblink.)

---------------------------

The reason I mention this is because when you pull up the script page, there is a hand written notation (or correction) in the margin that states "Michael knows Korean now ... he should SPEAK IT!" Now that would be freaky!

And finally, I know this has been mentioned all over the place, but I saw the interview with Malcolm David Kelley on Jimmy Kimmel Live, he talked about the clip in ADRIFT (2x02) where Walt is seen in a ghostlike apparition. He stated that the director had him say the line "Don't push the button!", but in the episode it is played backwards so as to be harder to destinguish. Here is a link to an MP3 of the line:

http://www.thetailsection.com/walt_whispers.mp3

Man, I can't wait for EVERYONE HATES HURLEY (2x04)!

Blane

[xadrian]

Ah, but you all remember being in gradeschool in 1980, well some of you. Some of you may not have been born yet, and some still recall how you liked Ike.

Point is, in 2nd grade, we still had filmstrips. Just because there was video, doesn't mean it was easily accessible or distributable. (new word.)

New question brought up in the film, something about, whatever you do, only put in the code, don't use the computer to...and thank you for watching your orientation video. Namaste, good luck.

What aren't we supposed to do with the computer? Play games? Surf for 8 bit porn? Help Link find the princess? What?

Ah, new task for Sayid. Plus, look at all the recorded data they have on the old tape drives. Gotta be some interesting stuff there.

New Entry. Feb, 1987. Research boat crashes on southern edge of island. 8 survivors. Or, Beachcraft plane crashes inland. Two survivors. Etc.

[Turd Ferguson]

Ah, but you all remember being in gradeschool in 1980, well some of you. Some of you may not have been born yet, and some still recall how you liked Ike.

Point is, in 2nd grade, we still had filmstrips. Just because there was video, doesn't mean it was easily accessible or distributable. (new word.).

Hey, I live in Austin, too. And it sounds like we're the same age. I think I was in second grade in 1980. Sure, sure, we had film strips and projectors in school, but that's more an issue of resources, isn't it? Schools don't usually have cutting edge equipment and electronics lying around, but you'd think that a "state o' the art" commune/utopia/Skinner Box secret experiment would.

It's a minor point, and it might only be thrown in that way as another anachronism to confuse us. Dunno.

New question brought up in the film, something about, whatever you do, only put in the code, don't use the computer to...and thank you for watching your orientation video. Namaste, good luck.

What aren't we supposed to do with the computer? Play games? Surf for 8 bit porn? Help Link find the princess? What?
Heh. That was my sentiment exactly, except with that computer it would've been "don't attempt to use the computer to play Choplifter." They didn't do much else, as I remember. My Dad was proud when he bought an external hard drive for his Apple III that advertised 5 megabytes. That's right, *5*. The machine itself had 256K, which was more than the Apple II or IIe, I think.

Ah, new task for Sayid. Plus, look at all the recorded data they have on the old tape drives. Gotta be some interesting stuff there.

New Entry. Feb, 1987. Research boat crashes on southern edge of island. 8 survivors. Or, Beachcraft plane crashes inland. Two survivors. Etc.
That's an interesting point. But if data exists on the drives pertaining to stuff going on outside the hatch, then either Desmond's lying about not knowing about the crash, or he's incapable of interpreting that data.

I guess the main question is: is the experiment forgotten, or is it functioning as intended?

[AshWalker]

As an old guy, I too remember watchin' films in school. That doesn't bother me.

The warning not to do anything else with the computer could be just part of the experiment (if it's an experiement). If it is an actual protocol, well, I had an original Apple II back in the day and actually still have Microsoft FlightSimulator version 1 on friggin' audio cassette.

[reciprocity]

Question about the Dharma initiative - could anyone tell me exactly what they said the goal was? As I understand it, it was to create a scientific community or some such.

Moreover, this is supposedly station 3 (of 6? The tape was 3 of 6 - did it also say that there were 6 stations?) so it is possible that all 6 stations are on this island, which would explain why we have heard whispers in other places (other subterranean stations) and why there are people with motives that do not fit with those of station 3 (kidnapping kids for a button pushing ritual? Makes little sense. Kidnapping kids for some other experiment at station 1, 2, 4, 5 or 6? More plausible.)

The theory of multiple stations on the island is corroborrated by the fact that the man on the tape referred to "this sector of the island" - which seems to imply there are other, also important sectors of the island.

Lastly, as I understand the tape, the 4 8 15 16 23 42 thing has been going on for longer than the Dharma Initiative - since the "incident" with the previous research team. This would make sense because of the fact that the numbers first appeared during WW2, but would not jibe with the notion that this is "only an experiment" unless the experiment has been going on for much longer than this tape indicates, or there is some other significance to the numbers beyond just resetting the experiment.

How great a red herring would it be if the program was just "reset the countdown to the sum of numbers entered"?

[David1991]

forgive me if i reiterate. i'm just dropping in after not having much time online. but i missed this place and wanted to share what i've been thinking about.

okay, so what is all being studied? or was mentioned as subjects of study during the Dharma Project? (forgive me if i'm a bit off, they rattled them off pretty fast and that film was SHITE quality)

Social Psychology: so okay. studying people in groups. seeing how they survive in panic situations. that is pretty much the whole bleedin crash. or even how they react to frightening situations. like the monster? it could all be elaborate to scare people to see how they handle it.

ParaPsychology: this is a big one! parapsychology is a pretty wide range. it's sorta like studying the unexplained, X Files stuff. things like ghosts---say, Jack's dad? or mind reading....like it sure seems Walt might be able to do.

Animal Biology/Genetics: lemme reiterate.....GIANT FRIGGIN POLAR BEARS IN A JUNGLE

ElectroMagnetics: okay, i hope this doesn't have to be explained. electromagnetics isn't just a concept of compasses not working ((like sayid pointed out)). or plane's dropping from the sky ((uh...flight 815 anyone?)) it's also a biological matter. we all have electromagnetic currents moving through us. some think that raising or lowering these can alter our perception, and the way we are linked to other people.

am i missing some things? how much did I screw this up? i was too excited to pay close enough attention, lol!


I think you are right on point!

What most caught my attention about the Film was the fact they were told they are in Station 3 on the Island which is also called The Swan station. Meaning there are more stations on the Island with different designations. They also said they studied other things like animals and genetics, this explains the symbol on the shark being the close to the symbol in the hatch but having a different animal in the middle. Also explains the polar bears.

I think the plane crash survivors are a social experiment, seeing how they form their society, as were other survivors previously, like Roussues team.

Someone mentioned Adam and Eve in the caves may have been the husband and wife team in the film, I would vote Yes on that, good call.

The Sickness is probably a result of another Station doing research on disease manipulation.

My 2 cents

[SickLife]

I think the plane crash survivors are a social experiment, seeing how they form their society, as were other survivors previously, like Roussues team.

i agree with most of this. but there's more to it than that. the way in which the cast members all got onto that plane wasn't part of a social experiement. & it was more than dumb luck. especially claire, locke, sayid, pretty much everyone had a 'situation' that made them get on that flight.

& the magnet didn't make them crash.

[Bigtimelucky]

gonna take time to process all this, lol.

we spend 6 days trying to come up wtih stuff, then get it all thrown at us in a few minutes.
that's the truth.......

[xadrian]

An island full of experiments that have all gone wrong, and the only one left running is the one that crashes boats and planes to study the effects.

Seems kinda sick, but I like it. Kinda makes everything fall into place.

The numbers, though, remember the "magic" Hurley numbers were the same on the hatch. Is it just serendipity then that the crazy Aussie heard those numbers instead of another set? If there are other hatches, they may all have other numbers. I'm surprise the film didn't mention the numbers specifically. Or did it? Can't remember.

[Turd Ferguson]

An island full of experiments that have all gone wrong, and the only one left running is the one that crashes boats and planes to study the effects.

Seems kinda sick, but I like it. Kinda makes everything fall into place.

The numbers, though, remember the "magic" Hurley numbers were the same on the hatch. Is it just serendipity then that the crazy Aussie heard those numbers instead of another set? If there are other hatches, they may all have other numbers. I'm surprise the film didn't mention the numbers specifically. Or did it? Can't remember.

Maybe they're all left running. Hell, maybe they're all attended similarly, too.

But what's the point of transmitting the numbers?

[reciprocity]

we don't know that the other experiments aren't running.

I have a hard time swallowing the notion that the survivors are part of an experiment though, I mean, that's a LOT of people to kill for a study on the formation of social groups.

Although I do not discount the possibility that these peopel were brought here because of the Dharma Initiative, I do doubt that they were brought here purposefully by the Dharma Initiative.

edit: re: transmitting numbers: do we know that the numbers are even still being transmitted? I mean, we know they used to be transmitted back in the day, but is there any evidence that they are still being broadcast?

[Hawaii Kai]

There's definitely more on that tape that they didn't show us.

[Jed]

"Welcome I'm Dr. Marvin Candle, and this is the orientation film for Station 3 (warble) of the Dharma Initiative.

In a moment you will be given (warble) simple set of instructions for how you and your partner will fulfill the responsibilities associated with this station. But first a little history:

The Dharma Initiative was created in 1970 and is the brainchild of Gerald and Karen Degroot. Two doctoral candidates at the University of Michigan. Following in the footsteps (warble) of visionaries such as B.F. Skinner (warble) imagined a large scale communal research compound where scientists and free thinkers from around the globe could pursue research in meteorlogy, psychology, parapsychology, zoology, elecrtomagnetism and utopian social (big warble and skip)....reclusive Danish industrialist and munitions magnate Alvar Hanso, whose financial backing made their dream of a multipurpose social science research facility a reality.

You and your partner are currently located at Station 3 or The Swan, and will be for the next 540 days. Now Station 3 was originally constructed as a laboratory where scientists could work to understand the unique electromagnetic fluctuations emanating from this sector of the island.

Not long after the experiments began however, there was....an incident. And since that time the following protocal has been observed: Every 108 minutes the button must be pushed. From the moment the alarm sounds you will have four minutes to enter the code into the microcomputer processor.

(warble and skip)

....induction into the program. When the alarm sounds either you or your parnter must input the code. It is highly recommended that you and your partner take alternating shifts. In this manner you both will stay as fresh as and alert.....(warble and skip) of utmost importance that when the alarm sounds the code be entered correctly and in a timely fashion. Now do not attempt to use the computer for any (thing ???)

(big warble and skip)

Congratulations, until your replacements arrive the future of the project is in your hands. On behalf of the Degroots, Alvar Hanso, and all of us at the Dharma Initiative. Thank you. Namaste, and good luck."

[Turd Ferguson]

edit: re: transmitting numbers: do we know that the numbers are even still being transmitted? I mean, we know they used to be transmitted back in the day, but is there any evidence that they are still being broadcast?
The only thing that I remember about the numbers being transmitted is that Rousseau changed the tape several years before to play her distress call.

But what would be the point of the original tape transmitting the numbers?

[ThePoint]

Thoughts... on this subject?

I'm pretty sure that its Narvik, Norway, my hometown, that's in the orientation-tape. Weird stuff.

[boristheblade]

The only thing I could think of is that the radio towers was sending a signal that allowed somebody to monitor whether or not the code was entered and executed. If it ended 16 years ago, maybe whatever they were trying to prevent happenend. What happened 16 years ago of significance?

I do not believe this theory, but it is the only reason why I could think of the numbers being broadcast. I am on the execution of the code being a mide game side of the fence right now.

[AshWalker]

Well, the numbers started transmitting at least 16 years ago... but we don't know how long before.

If things had STARTED to wrong in 1980 (the 'incident') and then just started to go more wrong... then one of the Dharma staff say "Dudes, we've been here 723 days. They ain't comin' back." So one of them decides to broadcast the numbers... maybe trying to recontact Hanso.

Or Hanso has discovered something about the numbers themselves, and,under the guise of a utopian research center, Hanso is/was actually seeing what effect he numbers had... they might broadcast the numbers.

But something got them on the plane and brought the plane done. There was a plan that operated on a level way beyond normal science (although a powerful psychic force maybe orchastrated it all).

So here are my currrent BIG questions:
Was Dharma to study the weirdness of the Island or did it help create the weirdness of the Island?
Was Dharma a legit plan or did Hanso have a more sinistar plan?
Did the experiment go horribly wrong or is it going wrong all part of the plan?
Does anyone actually control what is going on or is it a force beyond human conception?

[reciprocity]

or maybe the transmission of the numbers had to do with a completely different part of the Initiative, and didn't deal with the Skinner Box at all.

edit: also, do we have a date on when the listening post picked up the numbers being broadcast in "Numbers"?

[Deacon]

Anyone hear the mention of B.F. Skinner. My cobwebby brain recalls that he was a behavioral psychologist.

Skinner was a behavioralist psych. He also ran a number of controversial experiments involving the convincing of people that they where hurting other people when they weren't. He had regular people read questions supposedly being answered by another person. If the answering person failed to respond correctly the first person was supposed to shock them with electricity. What the first person did not know is that they answering person was not real. The true experiment was to find out how far people would go when given the green light by an authority (the scientists).

Connection to the Dharma? Seems to be evidence that it is not truly "saving the world".

[reciprocity]

He also ran a number of controversial experiments involving the convincing of people that they where hurting other people when they weren't.

I believe that was Milgrim actually.

edit: something interesting about Skinner. One of my friends found one of these (http://www.snopes.com/science/skinner.asp) in his basement.

[Medicineman]

"Was Dharma to study the weirdness of the Island or did it help create the weirdness of the Island?"

That just reminded me of something....the film said that part of the island had strong electromagnetic forces....not created by them but already in existence?

[VWjet]

My guess is the series name LOST is in reference to the island and not the Flight 815 survivors. Something about the Darma Initiative being created nearly 25 years ago and was only to last 540 days. Something happened, obviously stated in the Orientation film, and the founders have washed their hands of the "experiement."

[krisieshady]

I agree with your theory, but the orientation video said 3 of 6 and the Dharma initiative was dealing with meteorology, too.


You guys should really do some research...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_Box

B. F. Skinner was a pioneer in some regard (even mentioned in the orientation film) and I think is a very key point that's made. He created a concept called a Skinner Box, or what some refer to it as. Basically it was designed to study the effects of conditioning, environments, expsoure, etc. within a contained and controlled three dimensional space.

One good example of the research would be the The numbers/button. If you tell someone something will happen, and not specifically, but that, say they need to punch in a set of numbers and hit execute within a certain amount of time, they'll do it. Think of it as like the Mouse that knows which button to push in his cage to get cheese.

The Dharma Initiative:

I believe the Dharma initiative started out as an experiment of an experiment. Real scientists conducting real research, withina controlled environment, that is conditioned, and given specific conditioned tasks, and studies to continue rigourously, and thus, being studied themselves.

A few reasons for this.

Dharma Secion 3 "The Swan"

At the beginning of the film you will see this, along with "Orientation 3 of 5" which tells me that there are more, 5 to be exact. 5 specific enviornments spread throughout the island. In the orientation film, they mention studies of psychology, paraspychology, electro magnetism...and even zoology (polar bears and sharks anyone?)

Something obviously happened, something bad, and the project, forgotten, or abandoned, or is still being continued. But I also believe this to be true, considering Section 3 is also called "The Swan". This leads me to believe that the other areas are named differently, and have a logo similar to the Swan Dharma, but slightly different, signifying which research area is which...which would explain why the logo on the Shark is very different from the Swan.

But I think this is like one of those Dolls from Russia you always see. Where there is a doll, inside a bigger doll and that doll is inside of another doll and another, etc etc.

Also...

Anyone else think that maybe...the numbers are more of a date than anything?

4 years, 8 months, 15 days, 23 hours, 42 seconds?

[kpesanka]

Some number games here:

540 days = 777,600 minutes. 777,600 divides EVENLY by 108 (777,600/108 = 7200). 7200 is a pretty even number too, and I can only guess that this is not at all a coincidence.

Also, 4*8*15*15 = 7200 (the number of times they will enter the code over the course of 540 days).

There may be some other significance to the number 540 too. Yes, 108*5 = 540, but we're looking at different units of time, so I don't know that that means much.

[reciprocity]

except that doesn't it reset when they press execute, not when the countdown reaches zero? so wouldn't it not end up being 108 minutes each time?

[MileHighDave]

If you look at the Terms of Use (link at bottom left) the page was definitely created by ABC...boo.

And you would rather have someone completely unrelated to the show publish a website?

[jdLordHelmet]

Some number games here:

540 days = 777,600 minutes. 777,600 divides EVENLY by 108 (777,600/108 = 7200). 7200 is a pretty even number too, and I can only guess that this is not at all a coincidence.

Also, 4*8*15*15 = 7200 (the number of times they will enter the code over the course of 540 days).

There may be some other significance to the number 540 too. Yes, 108*5 = 540, but we're looking at different units of time, so I don't know that that means much.

Obviously it divides evenly. Any number that is a multiple of 540 will be evenly divisible by 108, because 540 is a multiple of 108. Common sense.

All this mathematical stretching is ridiculous.

[dcstealth]

I think the facility was built and in operation before the magnetic properties of the island were discovered.
The numbers are entered as a security code, and broadcast so the other 5 stations on the island to say everything is ok. Perhaps they all transmitted a similar code to each other at one time.
The electomagnetic pulses disrupted the signal at some time in the past, and some/all of the experiments were disrupted/abandoned or their test subjects released.
The Island created the incident, and the feared incident has already occurred.
Some of the others could be genetic combinations of animals, or animal humans.
Hence the shark with the marking, the polar bears, the boar chasing Sawyer
with human cunning etc.
Some of the other five sites may still be functioning, some may not.
The boat was from Dharma, to observe and contain their scientific catastrophe.

Dharma is no longer a functioning research site, but an abandoned accident at this point.

[peytonfarkuhar]

there is in the button theory also a theme associated with other psychological experiments of the 1950's, particualrly solomon asch's experiments of obedience. briefly, subjects were told by scientists to adminsiter shocks to other participants (who were confederates of the experimenters). whenever the confederates would say stop- and at times let out excruciating yells as voltage was increased- the scientists prodded the subjects to contibue on for the sake of the experiment. many subjects in the study contibued administering shocks long after they would have consciously- and conscientiously- stoped doing so because of the prodding of the authority figure scientist.

[coffee_annan]

so desmond thinks hes running and experiment, in reality hes the experiment and keeps pushing the button. maybe we are the experiment, we keep watching and making theories, closely monitored by abc

[reciprocity]

there is in the button theory also a theme associated with other psychological experiments of the 1950's, particualrly solomon asch's experiments of obedience. briefly, subjects were told by scientists to adminsiter shocks to other participants (who were confederates of the experimenters). whenever the confederates would say stop- and at times let out excruciating yells as voltage was increased- the scientists prodded the subjects to contibue on for the sake of the experiment. many subjects in the study contibued administering shocks long after they would have consciously- and conscientiously- stoped doing so because of the prodding of the authority figure scientist.

I believe that was Milgrim actually.

Asch studied groupthink and conformity.

[jdLordHelmet]

In the video, the scientist clearly says they wanted to use that particular island because it already had stuff going on. Something about "the curious electro-magnetic properties in that sector of the island", or something like that. So the island was definately "weird" before Dharma.

[kpesanka]

Obviously it divides evenly. Any number that is a multiple of 540 will be evenly divisible by 108, because 540 is a multiple of 108. Common sense.

All this mathematical stretching is ridiculous.


If you say so (regarding stretching). I personally think it is not totally random that they will have to hit the button exactly 7200 times over the course of their 540 tour of duty.

[Blakelyn]

I think the button activates the electromagnetic field, and prevents the people on the island from making contact with anyone. So they can't make radio contact. If they stop pushing the button, the electromagnetic field will turn off, and they could be found.

[jdLordHelmet]

My personal thought is something is buried near the swan hatch that gives off the electro-magnetism. Either an entity of some kind, or an alien space craft, or possibly both. I think whatever it is wants to be found, and is able to use psychic powers to make things happen on the island, like fixing Locke's legs and giving him "visions" to make him come and free it. Locke is clearly under the influence of this entity, and Locke knows somehow that the hatch wasn't the final destination for him - it was something deeper, something that was the reason for building the hatch in that location to begin with.

I think the scientists found this thing, and that was the "incident". They had to bury it behind concrete and implement some protocol to make sure it was monitored and locked away.

[dbdevgeek]

Been following this discussion and have not seen anybody pointing in this direction, so here is my thoughts:

The orientation said the experiment had gone wrong, could this have something to do with the electromagnetic source? As I see it, the monster and oddities seem contained in the dark territory. This could be the region of the initial electromagnetic experiment failure, resulting in possible time warp and hence black rock as well as invisible monster/security system. The fact this is contained to an area supports this possibility. As well, Ruseuo(SP) states her crew got sick on the way back from the black rock... ie the dark territory. Could this be side effects of high exposure to experemental (uncontrolled) electromagnetic radiation (hence causing the sickness)?

Also, could Adam and Eve be the first hatch/failed experiment victims?

Just some thoughts I am throwing out...

[peytonfarkuhar]

milgrim...correct. sorry.

[Dukefrukem]

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/cdi.html

On one of the pages I listed, at the end of the paragraph it says:

“Thank you. Namaste. Good Luck.”

I looked up Namaste. I believe it is a Hindu term. Some sort of greeting.

I found “pay homage to the inner light in all living things.” On google.

Maybe someone can run with this. Just throwing it out there.

Here are some insights into Namaste from a number of Hindu(s):

o Namaste elevates one's consciousness, reminding one that all
beings, all existence is holy, is the Almighty. It
communicates, "I honor or worship the Divinity within you."
Also it draws the individual inward for a moment, inspires
reflection on the deeper realities, softening the interface
between people. It would be difficult or offend or feel
animosity toward any one you greet as Paramatma.

o Namaste is a gesture of friendship and kindness, also of
thanks or special recognition. Mystically it is called
"Namaskara Mudra" in the Agami(c) Pooja, and it centers one's
energy within the spine.

o I've heard it means "I salute the Almighty within you." The
true Namaste gesture is is accompanied by bowing the head and
shoulders slightly. This is a gesture that lessens our sense
of ego and self-centeredness, requiring some humility to do it
well -- whereas shaking hands can be quite an arrogant event.

o Touching the hands together puts you in touch with your
center, your soul. namaste puts you forward as a soul, not an
outer personality.

o The gesture has a subtle effect on the aura and nerve system.
bringing focused attention and a collection of one's forces,
so to speak. It also protects against unnecessary psychic
connections which are fostered by shaking hands. This might be
called a form of purity also -- protecting one's energies.

This form of acknowledgment is so lovely, so graceful. Just
look at two people in Namaste and you will see so much human
beauty and refinement.

[dbdevgeek]

Coupla thoughts, no research yet,

I think here the electromagnetic studies were being conducted leading to an accident. This accident produce Manhattan Project like results leading to a region of unstability on the island...ie. the dark territory. This would explain the monster/security system and the appearance of the Black Rock. As well, people became infected or altered from contact with that region. This could be supported from Russo(SP) when she stated her crew became infected when comming back from the black rock, they were affected by the electromegnetic wacky going on in that region!
Furthermore, the Dharma scientist decided they had to contain the problem and developed the count down and the entry sequence, which keeps the electromagnetic field experiment incident from recurring, and ditched the research turning the hatch into a regional quarantine with a manned crew to keep entering the numbers and hence controlling the accident.

Just some thoughts....

Sorry for the double post, power went out

[MrFunnyMan]

Adam & Eve were found with the backgammon stones which seem to match the ones from the hatch.

I have mentioned this before but also all the supposed linked faith characters also are linked to backgammon boards ...

Locke
Walt
Desmond ?
Adam & Eve ?

Your thoughts ...

[Sawmill]

Could Alvar Hanso be an anagram?


Alvar=Larva....rebirth?

[walstib]

Check out this guys...

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/images/

There is a remote viewing playback of some kind...

[Jed]

Sorry for the double post, power went out


Was Desmond trying to fix your computer?

:LOL:


Do you guys remember the bagua-Dharma logo on the tail of the shark last week? That symbol contained a different icon in its center. Do you think it's part of one of the other "sectors of the island"? From the film, I gather that there are a total of 6 sectors, and Desmond is (was) in sector 3 - Swan.

What do you think?

best speculation in a long time.

[dbdevgeek]

Maybe my company should have bought computers from Dharma Inititive, they seem to last very well.

BTW I meant Philladelphia not manhattan

[Sawmill]

Everyone knows that keys are made of brass. Jack's key shouldn't of have been attracted to the magnetic source...


....and why the heck wa she wearing the key? Isn't the gun case empty right now?

[Blakelyn]

Does anyone think the fact the DHARMA has the word "HARM" in the middle of it is significant?

[tndj]

Does anyone else think what ever would happen if they did not push the button has already happened. Here is why..

Rosseau reprogrammed the transmitter to broadcast her distress signal 16 years ago.. Before that it transmitted the numbers over and over again. When it stopped sending the numbers what ever was going to happen would have happened.

If this has already been suggested I apologize.. Just wanted to get my 2 cents worth in..

I love this show.

[oddishx]

http://www.nrk.no/img/264231.jpeg
Anyone think this looks like the building in the orientation movie?
The picture is from Narvik a city in Norway.

[PaX_Norway]

This thing with Narvik is pretty wild.
For the first, the picture is the only pictrue taht locate anything is thsi movie..

And,, the scond thing:
The University of Narvik has an exchange-program with China that alows Chinese students to study at the school to became for example "scientist".

some picture from the same picture in the movie:
[Narvik Torg] (http://home.online.no/~oddlepe/artimages/Torget-topp.jpg)

[Narvik Torg] (http://www.nrk.no/img/264231.jpeg)

[chicah]

Well, that could explain the polar bears, because Narvik is not that far from the North Pole... Maybe they kinda had a base there, where they trained polar bears.

[Amanernil]

Here's the picture from the Orientation Tape:
http://ankenes.net/narvik_i_lost.jpg

It looks like the same place...

[Quiet Tempest]

Do you guys remember the bagua-Dharma logo on the tail of the shark last week? That symbol contained a different icon in its center. Do you think it's part of one of the other "sectors of the island"? From the film, I gather that there are a total of 6 sectors, and Desmond is (was) in sector 3 - Swan.

What do you think?

best speculation in a long time.


Thanks. :)

Do you have any ideas what the center icon on the shark's logo was? I thought it looked like a straight line, but that seems too simple.

Here's a screenshot of the logo on the shark in Adrift:
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/9695/capture14bx.th.jpg (http://img289.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture14bx.jpg)

..And here's a screenshot of the Swan logo in Orientation:
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/1392/capture6cs.th.jpg (http://img289.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture6cs.jpg)

[Blakelyn]

It looks like a rifle to me.

[ivelina]

Its actually, http://www.thehansofoundation.org/ .

This web site was created by ABC in July 2005

[Turd Ferguson]

You'd think the symbol-in-the-symbol on the shark would be something related to zoology, but it appears to be a lightning bolt.

[JustBlaneLost]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest)
Do you guys remember the bagua-Dharma logo on the tail of the shark last week? That symbol contained a different icon in its center. Do you think it's part of one of the other "sectors of the island"? From the film, I gather that there are a total of 6 sectors, and Desmond is (was) in sector 3 - Swan.

What do you think?



best speculation in a long time.


Yeah, I had that speculation in post #84 of this thread (11:39 p.m. yesterday)

http://lost-forum.com/showpost.php?p=496075&postcount=84

... and REZ also reiterated it in post #115

http://lost-forum.com/showpost.php?p=496555&postcount=115

Blane

[murbot]

You'd think the symbol-in-the-symbol on the shark would be something related to zoology, but it appears to be a lightning bolt.


At first glance the symbol on the shark looked like a nail to me, but now I think it might be a giraff's neck and head (head on the right side), turned sideways.

I agree with the zoology thing.

[chicah]

JustBlaneLost:
What makes you think all the stations (sectors) are on the island? It's possible the swan it's the only sector... If not, wouldn't they at least have had some contact with each other?

[SlikVik32]

Newbie so be kind please:

There's been lots of talk about specific people being the replacements int he hatch. Maybe this was already put forth, but what if the replacements never came because Danielle changed the transmission from the tower (presumably belonging to the Dharma Initiative) 16 years ago. That would explain Kelvin being down there with no one else (the other guy/girl died?) and so when Desmond happened to wash up on shore he took him as a partner. Also, maybe the numbers on the transmission was the Dharma groups way of making sure thigns were ok on the island, so when the stopped getting it they assumed the worst (sickness, the code not entered, something else really bad) and cut ties (i.e no replacements).............

[dcstealth]

The shark may be from a genetic engineering unit, rather then zoology. Since the bears looked like bears and were unmarked, while the shark had some odd parts about it, was marked, and behaved oddly in not continueing the attack. It could be altered, interspecies genetics and only wanted to keep the guys on the raft, not eat them.

[SickLife]

Newbie so be kind please:

There's been lots of talk about specific people being the replacements int he hatch. Maybe this was already put forth, but what if the replacements never came because Danielle changed the transmission from the tower (presumably belonging to the Dharma Initiative) 16 years ago. That would explain Kelvin being down there with no one else (the other guy/girl died?) and so when Desmond happened to wash up on shore he took him as a partner. Also, maybe the numbers on the transmission was the Dharma groups way of making sure thigns were ok on the island, so when the stopped getting it they assumed the worst (sickness, the code not entered, something else really bad) and cut ties (i.e no replacements).............

what if the numbers were put there, not by dharma init people, but by someone who went crazy from being in the hatch & typing them for so long.

danielle's message has gone on for 16 years, so the message before hers with the numbers message must've been programmed significantly enough before that it'd have been broadcast while she was still on her boat. dunno how long it took her to find the broadcast point once on the island. long enough her whole team would be dead. seeing as the lost people are still ok..it may have been a while

[SlikVik32]

Someone earlier posted some questions about "Namaste" and the Hinduism refernces (Dharma). In ancient times, at the top of the hindu caste systems was the royalty and right underneath were the Brahmins. They were the learned ones (usually the only caste other than royalty that could read or write) and were often times the group that priests came from. Some hindu scholars have found instances where certain brahmins were given the task of reading certain passages from the vedas (ancient hindu scriptures) for 108 days and then restart for another 108 days. This was done to.............keep the world from ending, literally (in their eyes). And yes, I am Hindu. Don't kow if this is coincidence or not.........

[shred]

Rosseau reprogrammed the transmitter to broadcast her distress signal 16 years ago.. Before that it transmitted the numbers over and over again. When it stopped sending the numbers what ever was going to happen would have happened.
This idea makes sense. I wondered if Desmond knew of the changed trasmission, and I now wonder the same thing about Kelvin/Calvin.

I'm in the "nothing will happen" camp.

Edit:
Here's a link to a very brief blurb about Stanley Milgram (who did the obedience/disobedience studies...)

http://www.stanleymilgram.com/milgram.php

[JustBlaneLost]

JustBlaneLost:
What makes you think all the stations (sectors) are on the island? It's possible the swan it's the only sector... If not, wouldn't they at least have had some contact with each other?

Well, much of this is definitely speculation, but Dr. Candle on the orientation film is very specific in his wording (I went over the close captioning on this). Here is the exact quote:

" ...You and your partner are currently located at Station 3 or The Swan, and will be for the next 540 days. Now Station 3 was originally constructed as a laboratory where scientists could work to understand the unique electromagnetic fluctuations emanating from this sector of the island. ..."

Notice that he said 'THIS sector of the island'. Now I think there is plenty of room for reasonable doubt about the legitimacy of this film, but if you think it is an accurate indicator of how the research facility was setup, then we at least know that the island is comprised of multiple sectors. Add in the fact that the shark had a different Dharma logo (which may also have been on the polar bear that attacked Walt) and we have some evidence that there are multiple Stations operating on the island.

Blane

[Pepper1o1]

Wow, ok I just caught this. Ok so here is the swan logo:
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/1392/capture6cs.th.jpg (http://img289.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture6cs.jpg)

and here is the Korean flag ....

http://www.lib.noaa.gov/korea/bilateral/img_bilateral/koreaflag.gif
I knew that symbol looked familiar....

Anyone know the significance behind the three bars with chunks taken out at the corners of the Korean flag? I did know at one point, which is what made me think of this, but I've forgotten

[chicah]

I've seen a lot of people mention that it looks like the I Ching-logo as well... Does anyone know anything about this stuff?

Maybe there's some truth in the theory about Sun's father... But I still don't realize why he would be interested in a science project, he seemed more like the person who wouldn't do anything unless he earns something from it... I don't think you earn much from pressing a button every 108 minutes ;)

[Pepper1o1]

Ha! I'm that nerd that responds to my own post. Anyway, chew on this a little :-)

http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/kr.html

The first part of this was about Iching and yin and yang, the middle part of the flag, which I think has been discussed. I'm more interested in the outer corners:

The symbols, called Kwae, in the four corners, mean the principle of movement and harmony. Basically, each Kwae consists of three bars that can be either broken or unbroken bars. A broken bar stands for yin while an unbroken bar stands for yang. For example, the upper left Kwae, called Kun, is composed of three solid unbroken bars. And the lower left Kwae, called Yi, is composed of two unbroken bars and one broken bar in between. Since one bar can be either broken or unbroken, i.e. same concept as bit as in the binary computer world, three bars can express 2**3 = 8 combinations. If you use four bars you can express 2**4=64 combinations; 10 bars, 2**10=1024, etc. Therefore the more bars you use the more different situation you can express with Kwae. Among so many states of Kwae, i.e. principle of movement of objects and events, four basic Kwae are used in the Korean National Flag. Those are Kun meaning heaven, Yi meaning fire, Kam meaning water, and Kon meaning earth. Each of them symbolizes a different state of movement.
___ ___ _ _ _ _
Kun ___ Yi _ _ Kam ___ Kon _ _
___ ___ _ _ _ _

The white color of background stands for the peace and the purity of the Korean people who have loved to wear white colored clothes. Therefore, the Korean people have been called the white-clad nation.

To conclude, the symbols, Yin, Yang, Kun, Yi, Kam, and Kon, express the principle of the movement of all objects in the universe and the movement of the universe itself. It also stands for peace and harmony.
Jorge Candeias, 14 October 1997

[Dukefrukem]

Wow, ok I just caught this. Ok so here is the swan logo:
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/1392/capture6cs.th.jpg (http://img289.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture6cs.jpg)

and here is the Korean flag ....

http://www.lib.noaa.gov/korea/bilateral/img_bilateral/koreaflag.gif
I knew that symbol looked familiar....

Anyone know the significance behind the three bars with chunks taken out at the corners of the Korean flag? I did know at one point, which is what made me think of this, but I've forgotten

The Korean flag is called Taegukki. Its design symbolizing the principles of yin and yang is from Asian philosophy. The circle in the center of the flag is divided into two equal parts.The upper red section represents the positive cosmic forces of yang. Conversely, the lower blue section represents the negative cosmic forces of yin.



The two forces together embody the concepts of continual movement, balance, and harmony that characterize the sphere of infinity. The circle is surrounded by four trigrams, one in each corner. Each trigram symbolizes one of the four universal elements :Heaven , Earth, Fire and Water.

look what i googled:

http://users.belgacom.net/symbolisme/trigrams_fichiers/trigra5.gif


http://users.belgacom.net/symbolisme/trigrams_fichiers/trigra3.gif

http://www.bluedragonkungfu.com/Members/ArchiveGraphics/trigra3.jpg

http://www.bluedragonkungfu.com/Members/ArchiveGraphics/trigra2.jpg

http://www.bluedragonkungfu.com/Members/ArchiveGraphics/trigra1.jpg

http://www.bluedragonkungfu.com/Members/ArchiveGraphics/trigra4.jpg

[JustBlaneLost]

Wow, ok I just caught this. Ok so here is the swan logo:
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/1392/capture6cs.th.jpg (http://img289.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capture6cs.jpg)

and here is the Korean flag ....

http://www.lib.noaa.gov/korea/bilateral/img_bilateral/koreaflag.gif
I knew that symbol looked familiar....

Anyone know the significance behind the three bars with chunks taken out at the corners of the Korean flag? I did know at one point, which is what made me think of this, but I've forgotten

Actually, the I-Ching symbol is a dead-on match ... much closer than the Korean flag. It wouldn't surprise me if the flag borrowed it's design from the I-Ching ... after all, the I-Ching was borrowed from Hindi and now we all think of it as being an oriental invention. Below is a graphic to clarify.

Blane

[Pepper1o1]

Actually, the I-Ching symbol is a dead-on match ... much closer than the Korean flag. It wouldn't surprise me if the flag borrowed it's design from the I-Ching ... after all, the I-Ching was borrowed from Hindi and now we all think of it as being an oriental invention. Below is a graphic to clarify.

Blane

Ah, I see. I wasn't too familiar with the I-Ching, but I just recognized parts from the Korean flag. My bad!

[Dukefrukem]

The shark may be from a genetic engineering unit, rather then zoology. Since the bears looked like bears and were unmarked,

has this been confirmed yet... ?

there are no marks/symbols on the bear?

which episode numbers does the bear appear? I'll check it out tonight.

[Quiet Tempest]

Do you guys remember the bagua-Dharma logo on the tail of the shark last week? That symbol contained a different icon in its center. Do you think it's part of one of the other "sectors of the island"? From the film, I gather that there are a total of 6 sectors, and Desmond is (was) in sector 3 - Swan.

What do you think?





Yeah, I had that speculation in post #84 of this thread (11:39 p.m. yesterday)

http://lost-forum.com/showpost.php?p=496075&postcount=84

... and REZ also reiterated it in post #115

http://lost-forum.com/showpost.php?p=496555&postcount=115

Blane

Sorry, I didn't recall seeing those posts in the midst of L-F server issues last night. Kudos to you guys for also coming to this conclusion.

[pshkbb]

I may be repeating what someone else has already said but I assume that the project and the button are truly a skinner box example (I know THIS part has been said already) where the study is just to see if someone will continue to push the button..

The question comes back to faith and here are my thoughts... the ep. where we meet Desmond is called Man of Science, Man of Faith and the first conversation Desmond and Jack have is about faith. Jack and Locke have the science/faith discussion as well and in this episode Helen tells Locke to take a leap of faith, Jack then asks Desmond if he even knows what he is running from and they discuss faith and then at the end - Locke and Jack discuss taking a leap of faith again....

so maybe the experiment is really about faith vs. science.....

[Feeney]

hmmm i dont think this is a man made island like some people thought since the scientist wanted to study the island. i mean why study it if you created it? or i could be wrong lol

[Slashdot]

The shark had a slightly different symbol on it. It must be part of another sector. and maybe the polar bear is a third sector on the island. Possibly all the sectors are on the island somewhere, black rock? idk just thoughts

oh well u guys already covered that. least we are on the same page now

in the beggining of the first season, for a while Jack sees what he thinks is his father. any thoughts on that

[dbdevgeek]

Black Rock could be part of containment zone or dark territory result from accident

[Madding]

Am I the only one that thinks the funder of this project is Locke’s father !!??
Actor Kevin Tighe.
He drove an ambulance on the 70’s show EMERGENCY
Weird !!??

[Slashdot]

The french woman (Roussou?) said she was with a bunch of scientist on the boat when it sunk, do u think that she knows what is going on with the island, was she sent to work there, or maybe she is now trying to stop it.?

[dbdevgeek]

I don't think she has a clue. Her crew got sick after going to the black rock wich cold be in the containment zone of the accident, electromagnetic physical aterations?

She does not have a clue

[Quiet Tempest]

Does anyone have any ideas about what "the incident" mentioned on the film could be referring to?

Edit:

I guess we now know who built the bridge seen last season..? Right? Or do you think it was built post-Dharma?

[LottoNumbersLost]

Decided to post this here as well, as it is my rambling thoughts and maybe they will help or not, this show is driving me nutty.

Just another note on the film.
If you watch it in slowmo, you see several times when there are circles in specific areas in the film.
They are not really just distortions to make it look old, IMO...but seem to be a signal of an area on the film or the frame prior or after that shot.

Also in the shot of the benifactor in the window, if you watch it in slowmo you will see a mirror image at one point. This happens in another spot in the film as well, but I forget.
This mirror imagery seems to be a clue to me at least. I am still wondering about that hoax mirror image theory that floated around. Was it a hoax?

Also since I'm posting this here, I noticed the main guy in the film blinked a lot. If you watch Jack he is also blinking at the same time the speaker is.
Jack appears to be bored in reg motion but watch in slowmo you see that he definatly seems to be lulled in to watching, as Locke is just staring.
I was thinking maybe it's a hypnosis type of thing going on.
Why else would they (recruites to this project) truly need to watch what it was about if they already were recruited for this project...they'd know. (newbies like Jack and Locke would not, and the tape might work to hypnotise them into beliving and working there?)

Also I did not hear the speaker ever give the numbers. I watched it a couple of times. But I was tired. But I never heard the numbers given on the film. How could this film help you now, without the numbers you would never know the code. So whom ever turned it over to you would have to give them to you, and could explain what the whole thing was about.
Which happend, but there is not fact in anything that Desond said baised on the tape, ie: end the world, blow up the world, ect.

Sorry to ramble...need a nap! LOL Sorry for the spelling, I'm in a hurry as well. Will check back later to see what you all have come up with! Later!

[Slashdot]

what else would a boat of scientists be doing near the island? Maybe she didn't have a clue but the other passengers did, but that doesn't really make sense.

[dbdevgeek]

Philladelphie Experement like, dealing with electromagnetic forces. Believe
it created the dark territory area and made hatch only there to prevent it
from happening again..

Maybe?

[Feeney]

hmm i have no idea, i think the film "skipped" that part

[Quiet Tempest]

I'm guessing the codes would be kept classified and known only to the pair stationed in each sector. Maybe each sector has its own code, even?

[Slashdot]

hmm possibly but i still think the dark territory is more than just a contaminated area, i think it is a larger control station possibly, the main area. im not sure. And if it is more than just a contaminated area, then i believe that Rouso knows more than it seems.

[toooolost]

Okay this is my first post so please dont bash on the newbie.

I have watched the first whole season and read up on the first 2 episodes of season 2 and hear is something i have been thinking about:

Walt says dont push the button the button is bad. We all probably think he is refering to the execute button so what if Walt is with the Others and the Dharma Initiative is designed to keep the Others trapped wherever they are by hitting the execute button every 108 mins. Maybe the Others arent bad and just prisoners who know that Walt is special and can help them. Just something i was thinking about while at work.

[coolbreeze]

Sorry ahead of time, I'm new to this and want to know how to download episode 2? I missed it last night. Can anyone direct me?

[Slashdot]

540 was mentioned at one point last night. i dont remeber when or for what, ill have to watch it again but 540 is 5 TIMES 108

Locke said in season 1 he saw into the hatch and it was beautiful. Either Locke has a thing for dark holes or he saw something that we haven't.

[dbdevgeek]

They ended up in the wrong place...

540 is the number of days each team has to remain in the hatch before being relieved

[AshWalker]

Walt says dont push the button the button is bad. We all probably think he is refering to the execute button so what if Walt is with the Others and the Dharma Initiative is designed to keep the Others trapped wherever they are by hitting the execute button every 108 mins. Maybe the Others arent bad and just prisoners who know that Walt is special and can help them. Just something i was thinking about while at work.
This is my thought too. Except I don't think we can count on Walt being good. Or The Others may have been speaking through Walt. If The Others are the remains of Dharma, some of them may have abilities (remote viewing, parapsychology). That may be what drew them to Walt. So the may be using Walt as a phone.

But this also means the button does something as opposed to stopping sommething.

[dcstealth]

If the islands emp's alter/dissrupt radio transmissions at times, and transmitting the numbers (a different set) from each station is the signal that the island is intact, then the event that is feared happened over 16 years ago. This was the only station left transmitting for Danielle to hear, or Lenny's buddy.