Jack: Man of Science (Official Pro/Con Discussion)

[Frink]

Well I hope this one will get a sticky to, because if Locke has one then Jack can have one.

But what are your thoughts about the man of science aka Jack?

Mine are...

Pro's

1. He is someone everyone listens to

Cons

1. Everything has to go his way, let others do what they want. (i.e. Locke)
2. Doesn't want to explore when his thoughts doesn't go out as planned (going down the hatch obviously, when it's a long ways down, he thought it would just be like a big tank underground where people could hide).

[Lostinlife3]

i have no problem with Jakc really (i mean if I was stuck on an island i would SO want Locke to lead me) but i definitely dont like him as much as I used to

[Raven O'Reilly]

I have a feeling there's a chance he might not believe much of what Hurley says anymore. The only reason I think this is because of the way Jack asked Hurley, "You were in a psych ward?" in a manner that implied surprise, but there was another kind of tone that just makes me feel this way. Not much, but that's the hunch I have.

[Lostinlife3]

yay i mean...me personally woulda been appalled to learn that Hurley's numbers had been on the side of the hatch! but then Jack is only interested in Hurleys sanity...

[SlayerVixen]

Jack is a real pessimist. It gets on my nerves sometimes, he's not prepared to let people state their case its his way or no way but i do agree he is someone people confide in and listen to. I thought his last scene with Sara was amazing, really emotional and great acting.

I must state though its not that i don't like Jack i do, i just think some of the traits he possesses are less than admirable.

[Lostinlife3]

i used to think he was like Super Jack....but not my thoughts are less than positive, he does need everything to be his way, yet at the same time he's someone you can really trust and look up to

[Mojave]

Jack is coolheaded and makes decisions quickly, those are good qualities on this Island. Locke is emotionally involved with the Island and his purpose. The character Jack needs to be there to bring some order (and health) to the show and the rest of the survivors. Also remember that Jack didn't want to be the leader, he was basically nominated and voted in by everyone. So it's not that he has to have everything his way, it's that people expect him to tell them what to do. They all know he's level minded and respect that and quite frankly, no one else on the island could lead that group, maybe with the exception of Sayid (though he gets emotional) or Kate (though everyone is a little leery of her fugitive status and she is also maybe a little too adventurous to be a leader). And don't tell me that Locke would make a good leader of this group. Sure it's fun to think of being in on all of his adventures and to have the spirit he has, but he is too focused on those things to lead a group of 40+ people.

[honeybee]

I must state though its not that i don't like Jack i do, i just think some of the traits he possesses are less than admirable.

During the scene where he was telling Sara she would never walk again, all I could think was, "wow, way to make this situation about yourself!" Where he is supposed to be the unemotional provider of information to the patient, he has put himself in the position to be consolled BY the patient. Weird.

[Fay]

Personally I start to love Jack and this from someone who was utterly annoyed by him till 1x11, because he is level-headed, he knows how to survive and he avoids risks for the group as whole, even when he is more than willing to put his life on the line. Given a choice between him and Locke, it’s Jack all the way. So he gets bossy? Good for him, everybody forced the responsibility on him to lead them, carry them through this and like he said in 1x25, it’s all good till he makes decisions others don’t like.

I was really surprised at the stares of shock he received from Hurly and Kate, while telling Locke what to do, I mean c’mon, he wanted to use the hatch as a shelter, that didn’t work out, so let’s move on to the problem at hand, which would be 40+ people panicking in the caves and driving themselves crazy with fear in the meantime. Anything else would be dangerous and reckless.

Locke for my taste is totally selfish or blended by whatever truth the Island showed him to lead people other than to the light he sees. He doesn’t strike me as a type who cares about them individually and more in the grand schemes of things. It’s a game and you have to sacrifice your pawn, except it’s a human being named Boone and who is gonna be next? Oh, right, Kate, because she moved on from hero-worshipping the ground Jack walked on to having a messiah-complex. Still running around in the jungle with dynamite wasn’t the smartest move to begin with and now being hostile isn’t either.

So yupp, Jack’s da man…

[Frink]

So I take it Jack never thought that sacrificing Arzt's life was more beneficial than sacrificing Boone's life?

Now Jack doesn't want to go down the hatch which going down would be in favor for Arzt's life. Now Locke he knows Boone would want to know what's down the hatch. So that is why he needs to go down there, for Boone and Artz. It is destiny.

[Fay]

I think there’s a big difference; Jack wasn’t holding back information or seen Arzt drenched in blood in the jungle mumbling ‘Just look over your shoulder! Part of me is onto you!’ or some nonsense like that in his dreams and more importantly believed that this dreams had significance like Locke did. Arzt volunteered to help with the dynamite representing himself as a man who knew what he was talking about and with more expertise than the rest. He was pushing himself in danger and Jack had no reason to believe, he wasn’t capable of handling the dynamite.

[kayla]

seriously if i were on that island i would want jack and locke to work together as a team to lead people.jacks the doctor and lockes the hunter.they are both needed.

[Fay]

Oh and also to add to the destiny question, all Locke got so far were warnings to not open that damn hatch, everything points that way and it seems kind of insane to not question it on Locke’s part. His deceitful lying to the group instead of saying I have more important things to do than hunting boar. Walt’s warning to not open it, especially with his knowledge that the boy is special. His dreams about Boone, still trying to lie to Sayid after Boone’s death and ignoring his warning. Hurly standing on the hatch and starting the fume despite the danger for a fellow survivor.

Jack reacts to situations he is confronted with, while Locke seeks them out and blames the outcome on destiny instead of thinking, that maybe, perhaps he should rethink the hints that lead him there in the first place. That he hasn’t read the signs right, take on responsibility for his actions. He is just like Jack’s dad, blames it on fate and I can understand why Jack has a big problem with that, because Locke isn’t risking only his own life, but the one’s around him as well. So I don’t think that Jack is about power or control, but simple survival and he don’t like risks and Locke is a big one for him.

[Frink]

But Locke saved Jack's life. Because it looked like he was screwed when he fell off that cliff, plus he wasn't listening to others about getting some sleep, when he needed it after he saw his dead father. Locke isn't the only person not doing as told. Jack is just a self-centered guy. He doesn't think anyone needs to tell him what to do, JUST LIKE LOCKE!

[Fay]

I think they even that one out, when Locke was dragged into a hole by whatever and pleaded with Jack to let him go. See, most people wouldn’t even had bothered with running after Locke when he foolishly decided that the Island Monster luvs him beary much and he needs to go after it by all means. Or they would have dropped him into the hole the second he begged for it, especially with Jack and Locke’s history… Instead Jack hold on and mentally calculating how many psych meds he had ready at the caves for Locke’s future treatment.

[Serendipitous]

So I take it Jack never thought that sacrificing Arzt's life was more beneficial than sacrificing Boone's life?

Now Jack doesn't want to go down the hatch which going down would be in favor for Arzt's life. Now Locke he knows Boone would want to know what's down the hatch. So that is why he needs to go down there, for Boone and Artz. It is destiny.

As I was watching Lost Season 2x01, I got my cousin started on Lost Season 1 disc 1, and she was watching my dvds on her laptop and I was watching from her TV(only tv in our apt, we're poor college students) right next to her so the volume from both things playing were muffled, and I missed a lot, I only really got to see what was happening. I barely heard much of the lines.

There was a scene with Arzt? Can someone elaborate more on this? *sorry to get off topic.

[Lostinlife3]

I think they even that one out, when Locke was dragged into a hole by whatever and pleaded with Jack to let him go. See, most people wouldn’t even had bothered with running after Locke when he foolishly decided that the Island Monster luvs him beary much and he needs to go after it by all means. Or they would have dropped him into the hole the second he begged for it, especially with Jack and Locke’s history… Instead Jack hold on and mentally calculating how many psych meds he had ready at the caves for Locke’s future treatment.

yea and at the same time Locke was thinkin, "Why won't this guy just stop being so controlling and TRUST ME"

[Fay]

Uhm, because you don’t drop people in deep holes and let them die, except you work as mobster? Locke’s demand was insane at that moment, so he was being tested? Couldn’t it be, I don’t know, yet another warning to not open that damn hatch thrown his way? Or that Jack was being tested? Why everything around Locke has has something to do with his fate? Isn’t that delusional of him from a rational and objective point of view, such as Jack’s? Because Jack doesn’t deny that certain things happen on the Island, he just denies that they have no responsibility for their actions.

[Lostinlife3]

Yea Locke's request might have sounded absurd at the time, but Jack knows enough about Locke that he shoulda at least taken into consideration what he was demanding, i mean, Locke has saved more than a couple people's lives on that island and doesn't deserve to be shut out everytime he makes a comment Jack finds insane.

[Frink]

Yea Locke's request might have sounded absurd at the time, but Jack knows enough about Locke that he shoulda at least taken into consideration what he was demanding, i mean, Locke has saved more than a couple people's lives on that island and doesn't deserve to be shut out everytime he makes a comment Jack finds insane.

Amen my BALD brother.

[Fay]

I don’t think Jack has a problem with Locke wandering around the island and minding his own business, but with the fact, that Locke kept them waiting for the food, instead of saying that hunting was not his task at hand. It’s not like Jack would have ordered him around or anything, if Locke would have told him or the others that he needs to explore the territory for whatever reason. But there’s a difference between playing games and survival. The group was managing the boar-less situation just fine, but more people could have fished or looked for fruits, if they knew that they couldn’t expect any from Locke and Boone’s little adventures.

I don’t think Jack has any problem with Locke disappearing into the jungle for good, being eaten by whatever, dragged into a hole by whatever and chasing his own bizarre truth about the island in the meantime.

I just think Jack had a problem with Locke dying in his presence, because that is what good people should have. And a good leader should try to protect the people around him, because if they are all dead, there’s nothing to lead… Plus some guilt for his failure to keep them safe.

[Frink]

But if the other's knew Locke wasn't hunting boar then they would put themselfs in danger of trying to get food. Locke didn't want others to get hurt when hunting. That is why Locke had to say he was hunting boar, instead of telling them the truth. Locke was smart telling them not the truth, because it would be a mass boar hunt, with someone getting injured or killed.

[Fay]

Or they could have been fishing? Or collecting fruits which leads to the chance of his hatch being discovered not on his terms and he was not ready to share his playground secret with the rest? Sorry, Locke didn’t tell them, because he didn’t want to explain himself and that would be, because he has no answers to any of their questions besides everything happens for a reason and this is fate. It’s not smart to leave everybody in the dark, which makes me doubt that he has any idea about what he is doing or seen the light at the end of the metaphorical tunnel.

[Aminta]

All I can say is that Jack is really , really starting to annoy the hell out of me... I'm on Locke's side now.

[Frink]

There are 2 sides, 2 players, one light (Jack) and one dark (Locke). I guess it is up to the people on the island, and the fans to decide which side they are on. And I am on the dark side.

And the sides are seemingly light and seemingly dark as viewed by social norms.

[Mr. E]

Although maybe not my favourite cahracter, I still like Jack. He didn't really want to be the "leader" of teh group, but since he was a doctor that made him by far the most needed person on the island, so he kind of got labeled as a leader because of it. As someone who has spent years of studying medecin and science, it's obvious that he would only look at facts and logic, which has shown in his decisions as a leader. And I think his decisions have almost always been the smart thing to do, especially in this episode.

[starbuck]

WOW! LOL I've sat here and read this whole thread. It's light vs. dark, Jack vs. Locke, Fay vs. Frink. :D Those two know there stuff and it's been enjoyable reading it all. Sad thing is I agree with you both... there are so many arguments to both characters.

I don't think I can really choose because they both left people in the dark (Jack about what he, Kate, and Charlie saw in the jungle/the pilot and Locke fibbing about the hatch). Even though one's a man of science and the other's a man of faith, they're both leaders and I think they equal each other in a very mysterious way. Maybe that's why they clash so much.

If it came down to it, I would trust my life with either one of them. But Jack's cuter. LOL!

[Lostinlife3]

If it came down to it, I would trust my life with either one of them. But Jack's cuter. LOL!

Yea but Sawyer is cuter than Jack!!!!

Light vs Dark? Why does Locke have to be the Dark Side? he's just as light as Jack, he's done nothing wrong....its just cause Jack was a good amercian doctor right? and all Locke did was work at a box company right?

[realityshowhater]

ummmm, no, Locke is just kinda a more shady character, Jack is more erm...not-shady...that probably wasn't right...but it's not cuz of their jobs before the island, i had actually left working in the box company in the back of my mind and I just remembered it now after you mentioned it.
I think I'd have to side with Jack, though, it seems that he is being more sensible while Locke is kinda like, "Okay, I have this hunch, let's follow it!"

[Lostinlife3]

i like Locke better because im kinda the same way....I totally follow my instinct and its right a lot of the time. there's nothing wrong with following your gut

[Ariah81]

I must admit that I always considered Locke the player, the pusher. At first, he was just pushing others into their slots -- like Jack into the role of the leader. He pushed Charlie out of drugs. He also pushed Sayid into Sawyer-bashing mode, on the dark side.

He seemed to me a kind of a sage, a wise man of the population that knows everything about the other people and knows how to use their stengths and weakneses for his own merit. There is cold calculation behind this and I'm not very fond of cold calculation.

Jack, on the other hand, has been seen rather re-acting to Locke, not acting against him. Locke initiates an action - Jack responds. The producers imply it's faith v.s. reason. I feel it's more like zeal/fanatism v.s. realism.

Some of Locke's recent actions were rather irrational from the pure survival point of view: blowing the hatch when Hurley was in the permimeter, going down the seemingly unknown, rather deep and awfully dark corridor with no preparation. I don't think anyone can say that lighting the fuse was a sane action?... But then again, what is Hurley's life in comparison to the hatch...

Jack can be too rational at times. And, understandably, once chosen a leader by the gropu he wants his decissions to be obeyed. I know I would. Come on, you don't choose a leader to boycot his orders. The decission not to descend dow the hatch was a good one, the speech to the freaked out survivors was good as well. I think Locke could have waited a moment and not demonstrate that he IS going to the hatch just after Jack finnished his speech. He could have done that a bit later.

I'm probably rambling for too long now. So yes, I'm for Jack in this episode. And on the whole, I know that faith cannot exist without the reason and vice versa. These two compliment eachother to form a bigger picture.

Light cannot exist without darkness.

[rob]

i think locke is very mysterious, but dont forget that it was he who hit sayid over the head when he was tryin 2 locate the french signal, he doesnt wnt 2 get off the island, mayb he will regret that now he's found out wat is down that hatch!

[lost/wwe fan]

First of all, I'm with Lostinlife3 and Frink, I'm on Locke's side. He has a lot of faith and he believes everything happens for a reason. I think Locke is a good role model for a lot of Christian which I am one.

To answer why Locke knocked out Sayid was to protect Sayid. Sayid could have been leading people into a trap and Locke understood that.

[Raven O'Reilly]

There are 2 sides, 2 players, one light (Jack) and one dark (Locke). I guess it is up to the people on the island, and the fans to decide which side they are on. And I am on the dark side.

Mwuahaha I love how that sounds. ;)

And the sides are seemingly light and seemingly dark as viewed by social norms.

Ya know, lately I've been thinking "outside the box" and, I think a lot of people will agree, that dark doesn't always equal bad/evil.

[JesSickUh]

Well I hope this one will get a sticky to, because if Locke has one then Jack can have one.

Pro's

1. He is someone everyone listens to

Cons

1. Everything has to go his way, let others do what they want. (i.e. Locke)


Yes he's someone that everyone wants to listen to, but I see that as a con in the long run.

I often see Jack as very patronizing. Like with Hurley's explanation of the numbers, he said 'try me' when Hurley said he might think he's crazy. After Hurley stopped talking, Jack wore this 'damn I wonder if I have some sleeping pills in my pocket' kind of expression. I'm kind of on the fence when basing things on science and faith (Locke/Jack) but I just couldn't be around a leader (especially a reluctant one) who always seems to want his own way. Someone who always says, 'I'll keep an open mind' while in the back of his brain he's thinking 'unless I don't agree, then being the leader that I am, I get to shoot you down, and you have to deal with it.' It's kind of hypocritical to his previous statement about how everyone wants him to be a leader until he does something they don't like.

Not a lot of people have been witness to all of his experiences where he's had to make the important decisions of the island. Well except for when he convinced some of them to relocate to the caves, and others opted to stay at the beach. As far as everyone is concerned, so far, they're all still alive and breathing because Jack the doctor made it so. But I think if more people witnessed his decision making process, they would realize that not everything is as black and white as it's made out to be.

[rob]

yer i think jack feels like he has a responsibility 2 luk after the group, cos sum of the group cry out 2 b taken care of, e.g shannon. But jack dosnt realize that sum of the group wud rather be more independant an do their own things, in this case locke. Jack fears the hatch, it is evident that before they go down their that he is anxious about exploring it, while in contrast locke cant wait 2 get down their and explore!

[starbuck]

Ya know, lately I've been thinking "outside the box" and, I think a lot of people will agree, that dark doesn't always equal bad/evil.

That's very true.

You know, I even don't know why I labelled Locke as dark. Jack might as well could be dark (dark hair - superficial, I know) but Locke could be light because he represents faith. We all know Jack doesn't, and with Desmond's "lift it up" comment he was in the dark... he didn't get it.

I don't know what I'm trying to say. I'm just enjoying the cluster of ideas!

So let's try to define how "dark" is good describing both of them.

[Frink]

Well when I said it is seemingly dark, I mean it is looked upon the majority of Locke's actions as dark, but it does not make his reasons to be dark? The same with Jack, his actions are looked upon as light, but does that make his reasons to be light?

[rob]

remember evry1 on the island has their own dark secrets, but it is the way that evry1 reacts 2 evry1 else on the island that determines whether or not they're a good or bad character. One things for sure, there's far worser things on this island than jack or locke!

[JesSickUh]

That's very true.

You know, I even don't know why I labelled Locke as dark. Jack might as well could be dark (dark hair - superficial, I know) but Locke could be light because he represents faith.

That's a good point. Jack's lack of faith or you could call it pessimism at best could be seen as a dark quality.

[Lostinlife3]

i tried telling you people that a few posts back!!!!!!!!

at least you understand me now!!!

[Frink]

i tried telling you people that a few posts back!!!!!!!!

at least you understand me now!!! That is true. lol

[Eruaistaniel]

I go back and forth as to who's side I'm on. In the end I always choose Jack because 1). He's been my favorite character from the beginning and 2). I'd rather stick with the doctor. :p

I myself would see myself choosing faith over science, but not to the point of obession like Locke has. I hated his excuse for Boone's death. I'm sorry, but I just can't accept that. I understand that Locke feels terrible over it too, but... it's just wrong.

And I can't believe you guys can't understand why Jack didn't let Locke go. I mean really, if you someone was being dragged down by some mysterious smoke and you're on this freaky island, and you were trying to save them and they said "just let me go I'll be alright" you would go "oh okay that makes complete sense in this chaotic mess we're in right now like duh me"? Jack had no reason but to be baffled.

But I don't want the group to split up. :(

[starbuck]

i tried telling you people that a few posts back!!!!!!!!

at least you understand me now!!!
LOL, I know, and I apologize. I forgot to mention that when I actually started thinking about that idea.

[phil]

has anybody noticed the substance that the man in the hatch injects into himself had the same numbers that were on the outside of the hatch......

[L0ST_ADDICT]

It definatly seems like ALL the survivors sway on both paths of light and dark. Some are on a fine line of both, some more so on one side than the others.

What i find distubing is that Locke "forces" people to chose a side of lockes own design.
Locke is by far the most complex character on this island that we have met so far. Sometimes he seems to do the right thing, other times he is so wrong in his actions.
The thing that made me not trust locke was when at the end of one of the episodes in the 1st season ( i forget which one now, one of the 1st half dozen i think) he was sitting on the beach looking off into nowhere and he DEFINATLY GROWLED ! I had shivers running up my spine when i heard that.

[galligirl]

Did anyone notice that when Jack was talking to Locke in front of the hatch and Locke switched the hand that was holding the torch and it passed in front of his face....that his face changed and they played eerie music? I think they are trying to establish that Locke is changing and obviously Jack is becoming concerned.

[Frink]

Jack is a total JackASS when he was telling Locke off. Telling him how HE wanted things to be done. Here he goes off on Locke when Locke clearly said "We went through a lot to get here." And Jack's responce was just idiotic. And he said we NEED to tell people what to do. When he should of said I need to tell people what to do just because I am a doctor and I am always right. I loved it when Kate even said "Jack?" Like wtf is wrong with you, Locke's right and you work very hard for something and you just give up like there is no hope (which he did on Sarah).

[realityshowhater]

This is supposed to be a disscussion of the pros and cons of Jack being a man of science, not of how much everyone likes or doesn't like Jack or how Jack is compared to Locke.

[LostWord]

Jack never said they were never going down the hatch. Why the frell couldn't Locke wait a few hours until daylight? It was only 3 hours away. Personally THAT is what I find makes no sense. I don't freakin' care how much he wanted to see what was down there it could wait.

Locke has lots of skills that could be helpful to people -- why isn't he interested in getting back to his fellow castaways and protecting them through the rest of the night just in case there are others who do show up? That's Jack's problem with Locke, for Jack it's not something he even needs to think about, everything he has, any skill that could possibly help other people he is going to use to do so, it's in his nature. Yet Locke has skills that could be helping people(hunting skills, knife skills, etc) and he seems to have no interest in helping anyone but himself get into that hatch.

They needed to get back because the other survivors were waiting for them to tell them what to do--if they were going to stay there or IF there plan had panned out to anything. It had nothing to do with anything except that was already the plan, everyone was to wait at the caves until Jack, Kate, Hurley and Locke got back to tell them whether or not the other plan had panned out. It hadn't, at least not that could be useful to them RIGHT NOW because there was no way 40 plus people were getting down into that hatch that night. They needed to be told that, they needed to know what they were going to have to do instead of being sort of in limbo.

And it's a good thing they came back too--seeing as people were getting ready to go at each other's throats with panic between Shannon telling everyone about seeing Walt and Charlie saying "there are no Others, she's just looney".

[Nokoolaidforme]

So I take it Jack never thought that sacrificing Arzt's life was more beneficial than sacrificing Boone's life?

Now Jack doesn't want to go down the hatch which going down would be in favor for Arzt's life. Now Locke he knows Boone would want to know what's down the hatch. So that is why he needs to go down there, for Boone and Artz. It is destiny.


whoa. whoa. whoa. Where'd that come from? did Jack have a dream about Arzt dying? did Jack ask for Arzzt to boss him around with the dynamite and tell him "Get out of my way." Locke had a dream of boone drenched in blood and manipulated him with "teresa" because he was so scared of losing his legs. to be fair, it was unintentional, but thats no excuse for locke.

lets get a little perspective here. Jack has to deal with the fate of every survivor in the group. He knows that, so does Locke. Locke likes his advantage point, he can be quote a "leader" and still have no responsibility of the group. Locke can have equal say to Jack in the desicion making process and receive none of the blame.

Locke used to be my favorite, but his new found enormous ego and lack of care over the rest of the survivors is crazy.

Jack is selfless. but to selfless, more like self damaging.

Locke has to ground himself in reality again, and get some perspective. His obsession over the Hatch has made him dangerous to the survivors around him. (poor naive kate)

[Nokoolaidforme]

Jack is a total JackASS when he was telling Locke off. Telling him how HE wanted things to be done. Here he goes off on Locke when Locke clearly said "We went through a lot to get here." And Jack's responce was just idiotic. And he said we NEED to tell people what to do. When he should of said I need to tell people what to do just because I am a doctor and I am always right. I loved it when Kate even said "Jack?" Like wtf is wrong with you, Locke's right and you work very hard for something and you just give up like there is no hope (which he did on Sarah).


no offense. but are you not getting the point of the other survivors waiting at the caves for them to tell them that the hatch is ok or they have another plan?

ya they did go through alot to get there, to save the other survivors lives. not answer lockes mysterious legs.

lets not forget that the original plan was that the others are coming! but now we know they arent. but they still think they are.


basic breakdown:

Jacks mind: how are we going to survive the others?

Lockes mind: hatch hatch hatch hatch paralized!

[Frink]

Can you guys please talk about JACK, considering this is his thread not Lockes!

[Nokoolaidforme]

Can you guys please talk about JACK, considering this is his thread not Lockes!

lol ya thats funny it started about jack.

but i was talking about jack, its just hard not to bring locke up since it is Science vs. Faith. and they both represent each side.

Im a man of faith, and i disagree with jacks confidence in science and that especially in a place like this, that he doesnt admit to believing in something more. However i think he does, he just wont admit it. like locke said, he does beleive in destiny. Jacks fear of entering the hatch was representing the fact that jack believed that something more existed and he didnt know how to comprehend that.

Locke is still one of my favorites. hes got alot of problems to work out (mostly bc of what happend to boone)
which makes him sympathetic.

Jack needs to wise up to his surroundings and understand that this place is beyond his doctors office and locke needs to wise up to the fact that not everything on this island is good i believe that locke might be being duped or used as puppet for maybe somthing evil.

sorry to go off topic, but Locke is a man of faith, but theres no way in hell he's representing a man of faith i would follow. jack and locke need to learn from each other. just like the real world in which Science and Faith need to learn from each other.

[in_ferior]

is it just me or is jack a complete idiot? he repeatedly ignores evidence that someone is in the hatch with him. like the mirror moving, the light coming on in his face, the music playing.. yet he turns his back to both doorways to look at a friggin' old pc console with nothing on it. i mean come on... maybe if there was a wallpaper of some hot chik on there, but just a blinking cursor gets his attention? stupid.

can i also say, this is at least the third time locke has had a gun pointed at his head. every time has been jack's fault.

[Angelmonster]

is it just me or is jack a complete idiot? he repeatedly ignores evidence that someone is in the hatch with him. like the mirror moving, the light coming on in his face, the music playing.. yet he turns his back to both doorways to look at a friggin' old pc console with nothing on it. i mean come on... maybe if there was a wallpaper of some hot chik on there, but just a blinking cursor gets his attention? stupid.

So your on an island that has some whispy monster up rooting trees without breaking a sweat. Your tired, thrown into a leadership role you dont want and you find this hatch. Supposedly these peopel are coming who will eat your face off and the girl who you are atleast attracted to and "that guy" who is causing more trouble then doing good is lost(no pun intended) with her. You go down the deep dark hole after them expecting god knows what and you find a working computer. Hello internet, email email email! Joking.

Seriously though you wouldnt be hella curious at a working computer on this strange island? If the french chick called the tree-uprooting monster a security system and to your knowledge security systems run via computers would you not want to touch it too? :D

[UConnBigO]

yeah science and faith have to learn from each other like in the real world, which has nothing to do with this show

faith needs to learn that science is real tangible and factual, and not just a crutch

[in_ferior]

Seriously though you wouldnt be hella curious at a working computer on this strange island? If the french chick called the tree-uprooting monster a security system and to your knowledge security systems run via computers would you not want to touch it too? :D

yeah i would be curious, but come on, there are priorities.. i would be in stealth mode pointing my gun around every corner. you can always come back to the console once you have secured the area.

[realityshowhater]

Well, with the music he just heard, he probably wasn't thinking, "okay, there's EXTREME danger here!" lol :)

[Frink]

yeah science and faith have to learn from each other like in the real world, which has nothing to do with this show

faith needs to learn that science is real tangible and factual, and not just a crutch Faith is more real than science. Science tends to say that things are real, when really you have to have other words which seperate real. Like what is real?


And by the way Jack does not know how to use a gun. What the hell is he still aiming the gun at Locke for? And he is a real JackASS negotiator when he tells Locke off "Is this your destiny?... All roads lead here". I mean suriously what an ass. I guess I love it when Hurley asked what bed-side manners were (well it's actually called empathy). And he says "Well your's suck". In which it does.

[galligirl]

is it just me or is jack a complete idiot? he repeatedly ignores evidence that someone is in the hatch with him. like the mirror moving, the light coming on in his face, the music playing.. yet he turns his back to both doorways to look at a friggin' old pc console with nothing on it. i mean come on... maybe if there was a wallpaper of some hot chik on there, but just a blinking cursor gets his attention? stupid.

can i also say, this is at least the third time locke has had a gun pointed at his head. every time has been jack's fault.

Don't diss Jack. He's under a lot of pressure saving people and keeping the troops together!! :D

[Raven O'Reilly]

can i also say, this is at least the third time locke has had a gun pointed at his head. every time has been jack's fault.

Wooooo... compelling statement! Continue with the thought! Seriously, because everyone knows I'm a raving Locke looney and they don't listen to me. ;)

Frink, thanks for stating that Locke would generally be a better crisis negotiator. I think I said that somewhere in here earlier. :)

[LostWord]

yeah i would be curious, but come on, there are priorities.. i would be in stealth mode pointing my gun around every corner. you can always come back to the console once you have secured the area.

He had the area as secured as he alone could get it. He'd already done the pointing the gun around the corners thing. Frankly I think it showed that Jack kept his head where most other people would probably freak out "Oh my god loud music, eek eek" and start shooting at nothing at all. The computer IS an important thing, Jack might have thought it was connected in some way to the music coming, it might have been automated in some way. Jack has no way of knowing or even suspecting that any strangers are actually down there. He doesn't know about the mysterious light coming on.

[in_ferior]

Jack has no way of knowing or even suspecting that any strangers are actually down there. He doesn't know about the mysterious light coming on.
i almost like your argument except for the fact that he does know someone is down there. a mirror turned as he walked by. right after that, the "mysterious light" shines directly in his face. i dunno, maybe he was in shock.. or the fact that he hadn't slept... or maybe he thought locke was jerking his chain.

it wouldn't surprise me if we found out locke and desmond are working together. where is locke's knife? i remember him strapping on a big knife before going down the hatch.. to his leg or his side i think. i guess that is for a different thread though..

i guess i just don't like jack. maybe because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else, or maybe it's because he never wants to compromise. it's either his way or the highway... or maybe because he still hasn't made a move on kate... who knows, i just don't like him.

oh, and WHY is he pointing the gun at LOCKE????? WTF!??!?

[Leper]

Jack and Locke are eager to blow the hatch, they sure went through a lot of trouble doing it...... Then surprise Jack wants to leave when the hatch is open and Locke is eager to go in.......

anyone have pics of Locke before or around his accident as I'm convinced it was locke on the gurney dead.... he was wearing a green and beige shirt.

[realityshowhater]

Faith is more real than science. Science tends to say that things are real, when really you have to have other words which seperate real. Like what is real?


And by the way Jack does not know how to use a gun. What the hell is he still aiming the gun at Locke for? And he is a real JackASS negotiator when he tells Locke off "Is this your destiny?... All roads lead here". I mean suriously what an ass. I guess I love it when Hurley asked what bed-side manners were (well it's actually called empathy). And he says "Well your's suck". In which it does.
Woah! How did you draw the conclusion that faith is more real than science? I totally did not understand what you said there.
And by what stretch of imagination could anyone see Jack not being pissed off at Locke? I would have gone further than Jack did. Locke was the one being an ass, not Jack.
Okay, so Jack doesn't have empathy. Well Locke doesn't have an ounce of reason in his head. Jack is realistic and it makes some people angry. Locke is not logical and makes people angry. Who wouldn't lean toward Jack?

[shred]

Can you guys please talk about JACK, considering this is his thread not Lockes!

So Jack goes into the hatch hole where he encounters Jack who is being held at gunpoint by Jack. Then he says, "Where's Jack?" And Jack tries to tell him that Jack is all right, but then Jack tells Jack to put the gun down. And he calls him brother.

Maybe it's a little hard to talk about one character without mentioning the others?

(I'm sorry--I couldn't resist. I am evil.)

[realityshowhater]

lol! Mwa-ha-ha! too funny.

[Jack_luver]

hey am i the only one who was a little dissappointed with the first episode? I mean it was good and all, but what happened? The first episode of teh first season was the best episode i have ever seen. They didnt really try to top it at all. Where were Charlie, Claire, and everyone else? I dunno, maybe im being too critical, but i was a little dissappointed.

[banshee]

Faith is more real than science. Science tends to say that things are real, when really you have to have other words which seperate real. Like what is real?


And by the way Jack does not know how to use a gun. What the hell is he still aiming the gun at Locke for? And he is a real JackASS negotiator when he tells Locke off "Is this your destiny?... All roads lead here". I mean suriously what an ass. I guess I love it when Hurley asked what bed-side manners were (well it's actually called empathy). And he says "Well your's suck". In which it does.

I don't think Jack deserves labels of ass or an idiot though any more than other folks who swam w/sharks and had a gaping bleeding wound or konked ppl over the head & cast suspicion on an innocent man to take the heat off himself.

Jack was inappropriate to say that to Hurley but was it really that dishonest of a q? He's a doctor, Hurley mentions he was in a pysche ward & he's saying the numbers are cursed. I think it's what most ppl would think but would say something else to patronize Hurley. At least Jack told him he wasn't crazy which is more than Charlie gave him....I don't recall ppl taking such offense when Sawyer called Hurley Lardo, Stay Puff, or Pork Pie. And what about all the other times Jack has been empathic;how he comforted Rose, was gentle and kind to calm Claire after her nightmares. Did he rag on Charlie for his habit? Shooting Ethan?Sun for speaking English and poisoning a man? How many times has he forgiven Kate for drugging him and using him?He was willing to put his career on the line for his father who used his son's love to manipulate him.

Consider things from Jack's perspective in the hatch...Jack gives a speech about hope & survival to try and calm ppl's fears & Locke purposely undermines that in front of the group..He's been eager forever to get in hatch & you can tell in the opening scenes of MOFMOS he's not concerned about getting back to the ppl waiting. Jack arrives no Kate or Locke in sight. He sees Locke's shoes neatly sitting on the inside. Why take them off in a clearly wet environment that says QUARANTINE on it? Locke is the same person who lit a fuse w/Hurley there, & Boone died maybe not because of John per se-but certainly because of the hatch quest, & Locke told Jack he was a a sacrifice. Now Locke emerges in socks, sounding like he knows what the button is, Jack's startled-raises his gun. still no Kate and now he wants answers... He came to the hatch in the 1st place because like Hurley, Jack realized Locke may not give Kate a choice as to whether or not she wanted to be in danger. He wasn't holding a gun on him to get revenge, it was for answers only, just like at the funeral, and the same way Sayid held one to Locke in the jungle.

Something else to consider...Locke shares many parallels with Christian including being men of fate/hope & having lied to Jack.... Contrary to how much time hs gone by for *us*, Christian only died 40 days ago and there's no way Jack has completed the stages of grief...He was obviously remembering Christian and this is a man who left enromous pain in Jack's life. Now someone else he cares about, Kate, is missing..So is he saying those words to Locke entirely, or are they in part what he wished he could have said to Christian?

[Burcartman]

Hello, I'm a student and I am trying to hone in my english skills and I decided to focus on an episode in Lost, because it is a great show to practice with--not to mention I watch it often. Anyhow, I encourage anyone to read what I have to say, and please respond truthfully-- I welcome constructive criticism.

In the opening of the episode, several screenshots clue the audience into the setting of the episode. The time period is fairly modern, as the opening scene is of a green cursor blinking on a computer screen, and an unknown man in the "hatch" is injecting himself with prescription medicine. The time of the episode can be further narrowed down as Locke provides a solution for getting down the hatch without using the broken ladder. He states, "If we could use the wire we pulled from the fuselage." It is clear that there is either an airplane fuselage that is on the island, or that the characters reached the island on the airplane-- in previous episodes it is clear that the characters crashed on the island on the plane, but it is not clarified in the episode. However, it is obvious that airplanes did exist during the time of the episode, which narrows the episode's time, with help from the existence of the computer, to after the 1980s. The location of the episode is evident through screenshots and dialogue as well. As the episode unfolds, most of the action in the episode occurs in the jungle. Green vines and exotic vegetation suggest that the episode is occurring somewhere tropical, perhaps in a jungle or an island, or both. A large body of water is somewhere in the location of the episode as Locke speaks about the "brave folks on the raft". Between characters, it is clear that wherever the episode is taking place, there are caves that exist. Several times that characters refer to the caves as a place where the other characters are gathered, perhaps a haven from the natural elements of the location. The place of the story enhances the episode as there is more open space, which the author took advantage of to show character's traits.
Character development is most prevalent in Locke, Jack, and Hurley. Jack is portrayed as a stubborn and arrogant leader that forms many of his decisions on facts. The author uses flashbacks to demonstrate some of Jack's traits. Jack is a doctor, and during a flashback the narrator displays a situation that Jack encountered. A woman and a man that had been in a car crash came into the Emergency Room. Jack made a decision to focus on the woman and as the man died, Jack never swayed in his decision to stop helping the woman. The narrator shows that Jack is determined to reach his goals, and is not willing to change his decisions. In addition, Jack bases most of his decisions on fact alone. In the episode, the hatch has just been blown open and Locke wants to go in it. Jack states, "That plan is not going to work....we're leaving now." After explaining why the plan would not work, Jack orders the characters that are at the hatch that they are going to leave. Because the plan would not work, the group would not do it--Jack's thoughts are logical and straightforward. During the episode, Jack changes over time. In the beginning, Jack does not have much hope for anything and he is blunt because of his direct way of thinking. But towards the end of the episode, Jack reassures the group that they will be "OK", even though the "others" are out to get them. This is a huge change for Jack because before, Jack was stubborn and would tell any of the characters exactly what he thought. Later in the episode, Jack gives them false hope, going against his way of thinking. Locke is portrayed as another stubborn character, but one who is not aggressive like Jack. The narrator describes traits of Locke by comparing him with Jack. During a confrontation, Jack orders the characters to leave, and Locke responds calmly. Jack proclaims, "John, we're leaving now," and Locke responds "Sure, of course." Instead of speaking his mind bluntly, Locke initially submits to Jack. Afterwards, the author shows that Locke is actually stubborn. Locke states, "wait for the brave folks on the raft to bring help, but me, I'm tired of waiting," and at this point Locke disregards the ideas from other characters and goes out on his own. During the episode, Locke remains the same, as he maintains his calm nature even when a gun is pointed at his head. Hurley plays the important role of being the mediator between Jack and Locke. Hurley's traits are that he is very calm and laid back, where nothing matters very much to him except for the "numbers". When Locke or Jack flares up, Hurley is there to crack a joke and lighten up the situation--Hurley prolongs the conflict between Jack and Locke. The author's character development deteriorates from the episode, but enhances the story. Jack and Locke's conflicts get in the way of the real problem of the story: figuring out the function of the man inside the hatch.
The problem that must be solved in order for the episode to end, or the conflict, is that the character inside the hatch needs to be identified. At first, I considered Jack and Locke's confrontations as the conflict, but ruled this option out because at the end of the episode, Jack and Locke still compete with each other. However, when the identity of the character in the hatch is revealed, the mystery and main question in the beginning of the episode, "Who is the man that lives in the hatch?", is answered and the story ends. Complications in the story occur when Jack and Hurley oppose Locke going down into the hatch. After the hatch is opened and Locke wants to descend into the shaft, Hurley and Jack tell him that it is not safe and that he should wait until morning. Hurley and Jack's opinions delay Locke going into the hatch, which delays the characters realizing the real identity of the man in the hatch. The crisis in the episode occurs when Kate, Jack's girlfriend, and Locke get abducted by the hatch. At this point, the narrator does not provide the audience with the identity of the man in the hatch, and all is known is that Locke and Kate are being held in the hatch. This occurs as Kate is being lowered into the hatch, and right as she yells, "I think there is something down here", floodlights turn on in the hatch and the episode goes to a commercial. This was the final complication of discovering the identity of the man and the event before Jack decides to go in. The climax is when Jack finally decides to go into the hatch. At this point, the other characters are being held by a man that they do not know, and it is only when Jack makes the decision to go into the hatch that the mans identity is discovered. At this point, Jack overcomes his stubbornness and decides that rescuing Kate is more important than being safe, and it is Kate that motivates him into the hatch. The conclusion is when Jack and Desmond, the man in the hatch, are pointing their guns at each other. At this point, Jack realizes who the assailant is and recognizes him from a previous encounter in the city. This part seemed unrealistic to me that Jack would recognize Desmond-- does not seem very plausible that the world is "small enough" for them to know each other. However, it is at this point that the question of the episode is solved, and the episode then ends. I felt that the elements of plot played well with the episode because it introduced a mysterious question in the beginning of the episode and went forth to answer that question in the end.
The point of view in the story is objective- the audience sees all events as if they were played out right in front of them. The series Lost has maintained this point of view since it started, and without it, the series would have too many unanswered questions.
The theme of the episode is that the life of a person is more important than the differences between two people. In the episode, Jack and Locke disagree many times about the best way to descend into the hatch. Both characters are stubborn and they never seem to be able to agree with one another. It is only when Locke decides that he is going anyways, that Kate and Jack decide to go in with him. Kate says, "Live together, die alone, right?" to Jack as a way of justifying her decision to go into the hatch with Locke. This scene depicts the care Kate has for the life of her friend, Locke. In addition, while she is at the hatch with Locke, Jack decides that he will also go into the hatch, because he is worried about the life of Kate. Before people's lives were introduced, Jack would have never gone to the hatch when he did, because that was what Locke wanted and Jack strongly disagreed. However, once Locke and Kate's lives were at risk, Jack threw out his differences with Locke and bravely descended down the hatch. This episode wants the audience to know that when a person's life is at risk, small differences between people do not matter. I felt that this theme enhanced the episode because it did not change the character's traits, which would have been unrealistic, but it simply brushed them aside in order to save the lives of their loved ones. If the characters had a change of heart, and Jack simply became silent and obedient, the story and the episode would not have been effective.

[LetGoFreckles]

There is another parallel between Jack and Locke, on the subject of Christian.
In ATBCHDI Christian used love- his "Love" for Jack- to get Jack to lie on the medical reprt. He only turned to love after everything else didn't sway Jack! Locke's father, Anthony, used fatherly love-something John has surely been craving all of these years- to get John to give up his kidney, then dumped him after he got what he wanted.

[dkm]

jack is the hero the leader therefore hes gt alotta decisions to make
no disrespect to any other character but they all are stubborn in their own way.
hes just a really committed guy who cares more than heneeds to
yeh hes stubborn at times but he mkes up 4 it wit his genuine concern
and anyways i love him so i tink hes brill and sexy

[Quincy2]

I feel Locke and Jack actually compliment each other. While Jack is totally self centered and hates being challenged as leader of the group. Locke ispires more trust from the group because he's always calm and looks at things as if they were meant to happen and the survivors are meant to figure out why things happened. Whereas Jack tries to figure out solutioms to problems without looking at the bigger picture

[Boone_lover]

I love Jack!!! Jack is close to the top of the list for me in favourite characters mainly because i like him more everytime i watch him. The only thing is that as much as i sympathize and empathize and fell so strongly for what he has to put up with and deal with, i know Locke is right when it comes to the whole "Faith" thing.

I don't like Locke but i find him intriguing and watching him get on Jack's nerves is so painful because i just want to reach out and help but i just KNOW that Locke's way is right.

God bless Jack! :smooch:

[joshlove]

I love Jack, but not too much...... He's a good guy, pretty good-looking and nice thinking......... but that's all.

[FOXYsbiggestfan]

I love Jack, a bit too much:giggle:

I cant think of anything wrong with him at the moment