Faith/Science poll

[LovelyLight]

Ok, I searched and found nothing for this so I'll give it a go. I'm a person of faith.

[mariposita_linda]

me too, there things that science cant explain...

[Sing_Without_A_Reason]

Faith, although I'm not really on Locke's in the particular argument that he and Jack are having.

[Quiet Tempest]

Logic, reasoning, and rationale here. ;)
http://img173.echo.cx/img173/3958/escience4jr.gif

[tetaelzbieta]

It's not as black and white for me but I'd say science. I can't just believe things without proof, that doesn't make sense to me.

[Evi*Is*My*Hero]

im more of a person of faith, like how the world was created and such.....but i do find it interesting to find out logical reasons to how everyone could have happened.

[mariposita_linda]

that is a great way of putting it i have to agree with you evi

[Nikiwi]

Well, I'm a person of faith, though, if proof is available, I like to see it. But I do take a lot on faith.

[I-am-Lost]

Faith...science is way too flawed...it really wasn't that long ago that people thought the earth was flat,lol

[Nikiwi]

Yeah. It's interesting. 500 years ago, people "knew" the earth was flat. 200 years ago, people "knew" that African Americans were inferior. 100 years ago, people "knew" that man couldn't fly or reach the stars. It's interesting to think of all the things we "know" today. ;)

[sawyer'sgirl]

faith.... science changes. faith is an ever present constant.

[Meli]

Faith, because Science is what everyone else believes in & says is the right answer. Faith is what I believe in & say is the right answer, and your own opinion is always what you should believe in first hand, because Science is always going to be flawed :)

[Quiet Tempest]

Science is everchanging because we are constantly discovering new thing. I really don't see how you can say science is flawed simply because you don't have all the answers immediately.

[Evi*Is*My*Hero]

i dont think science is flawed, i think its just our faith that makes us think differently

[honeyrabbit321]

more science then faith...there still stuff i believe...if i landed on Lost island i so totally believe in the island....

[Quiet Tempest]

I guess I just feel really strongly when it comes to secularism.

[LOST_arbiter]

faith.... science changes. faith is an ever present constant.Completely and whole-heartedly agree.

[Meli]

Well, some things in science could be flawed, like they said, the world had been confirmed as "Flat"...but was it? No. :p That was a flaw... o.O

[Quiet Tempest]

Yes, but it was religious texts that claimed the Earth had 4 corners (flat). Same religious texts also claim that bats are birds, whales are fish, rabbits chew cud, etc.

[Shelly]

F.a.i.t.h!

[Meli]

Well, you learn something new everyday XD I didn't know that at all :p

Anyway, I don't know why I'm defending myself x_x; You guys totally read what I put wrong, I didn't mean to say that Science is flawed, I meant to say that what you believe in will always be true to you, because you believe in it :) You could open your windows tommorow & realize that the sky is raining gumballs, so you never know what's true in Science (hence there could be flaws that we don't know about, which is why I said that :P), but faith lasts forever. [insert sparkles & bubbles here] XD

[tetaelzbieta]

Of course science is flawed. Science is a process of trial and error.

I guess my more literal mind can't process how people can believe things when there is absolutely no proof that has basis in fact. That probably sounds horrible, but I assure you I respect the beliefs of everyone who can argue them intelligently.

[^Katilyn^]

Science probably. A lot more of a science person than a faith person.

[pftsobfreak]

99.9% faith, 00.1% science. LMAO. There's a lot of stuff Science can't explain, like the start of time, the earth, and all that whatnot. I believe in Fate as well. But I'm not as obsessed as Locke is. :p

[rock_on7210]

I tried to be faithful, but faith turned it's back on me.

[Adelheid]

SCIENCE! Science is real, faith is fake. Atleast that's my opinion.

I was watching this show on National Geographic about where humans came from - the 'science' Adam, or the 'faith' Adam. It is so the science Adam. And guess who alllllllllllllllll of us are related to? Every single person in the world is related to a man from Africa. Could you imagine if the anti-Black people from the 1800's would think if someone told them that? Lol.
If God created earth 6000 years ago, what's with the dinasours and prehistoric life beings? Huh? And if God created Adam, what's with apes and monkeys becoming humans? I really don't understand faith. It doesn't make any sense. Faith was created by stupid men thousands of years ago because they couldn't understand where humans came from, or why the sun rises, etc. Now that we know real things by technology and science, I seriously don't think there's any need for faith. Do you really think there's this invisible guy in the sky creating everything? Do you know how stupid that sounds? Lol.
Sorry if I'm offending anyone - this is a hot subject for me. My family is very anti-religion - but not really against religious people. Just against the whole idea of religion.
I could go on forever. But I'll leave it at that. :p

BTW
99.9% faith, 00.1% science. LMAO. There's a lot of stuff Science can't explain, like the start of time, the earth, and all that whatnot. I believe in Fate as well. But I'm not as obsessed as Locke is.
Well, what can religion explain? Religion. Was. Made. UP. Like I said, by people who didn't understand it. Science can explain everything, like the start of time and the earth. Just because we haven't discovered all the answers, that doesn't mean science isn't real. Faith isn't real. Believe me, we will find all the answers, with EVIDENCE. REAL EVIDENCE. The earth, the universe, everything was created by science, or what you might like to call the Big Bang, or whatever your theory is on how everything in space was created.

[pftsobfreak]

I'm not that religious, though. I believe in God and Heaven. But I'm not a... what's the word? 'Religion fanatic.' But I just have my own personal believes in some things.

[Adelheid]

Yeah, I mean, you can believe whatever you want, but I think there's a scientific explanation for everything. :D

[pftsobfreak]

And that's opinion, and I respect it.

Go check out the Betty thread, Heidi.

[sawyer'sgirl]

Heidi, there are just some things that cannot be explained by science alone...as in MIRACLES.

and btw it is impossible to trace back to adam because the male chromisome you cannot trace back past paternity of living beings. however, the female chromisome is able to be traced, and has been to Africa.

also there is no time frame for when God created the earth, 6000 years ago is just a time frame used in the bible by men who had a time frame COMPLETLY different from ours.

also God according to the bible created adam last. that means dinosaurs and pre-historic things could live and still might have lived at the time of adam.

and i always have questions for those who believe in creation based on science. everything has an origin and in a person of faith's belief that origin is God. How could the particles and cells that "created" the earth come to be?? how was space created? how was the passing of time created? and how can the order of the universe just come to be? SCIENCE can explain that if the sun was just a TINY bit hotter life on earth would not exist. how did the circle of life just Happen to hit it off right and get the 1/1,000,000 of a chance to have an ordered environment that could produce life? and one more how do you explain the moral conscience of a human cmpared to an animal? humans know what we are doing and can feel emotion. animals have functions based on instinct. the difference between humans and animals is we KNOW what we do and CHOOSE to do it by using a CONSCIENCE. those three things are things that go beyond science.

no personal offense to those who do not believe in religion, but in my opinion, human life and the origins of life is something that transcends basic science. Moral conscience and the ablility to LOVE is not a NATURAL thing. God gave us science to explain how the universe HE made works. but some things just aren't explained. So rock on GOD, Yahweh, or Allah whateva you want to call him!!!!!!!

[cemipi]

i voted faith, but im a little bit of both. i try not to be bias, i keep an open mind.

i'm also not ignorant.

[pftsobfreak]

^ ^ I'm the same way.

[LostSurvivors]

Faith what makes us Human being! As some of you said earlier, there are things science can't explain!

[tetaelzbieta]

Okay, I'm really not understanding the "there are things science can't explain" argument. Faith is never asking for an explanation, it's never questioning. So, if you need an explanation so badly, how can you have faith?

[Whit]

I guess I'm a little bit of both but I voted science.

[dreamcatcher]

I'm a person of science. I like to think that everything has a scientific reason for happening. I don't know... it just makes me feel better knowing that things can be explained, that there are reasons, cause-and-effect relationships, for things being the way they are.

[yahoo]

LOL... I would say that I am a person of Science too...

Like Kim said, Science can explain all( Well, almost all ;) ) things that happens around us.

Another reason why I voted Science is --> I am afraid of ghosts:eek:... So, I better vote for Science. This is because the word "ghost" doesn't exsist in Science ...

[Lizstique]

Science, I've dedicated years on science but I'm not excluding faith.

[Razor]

I have 100% faith ... that all can be explained by science. That's not to say that we have all the answer - just that one exists.

[Adelheid]

Heidi, there are just some things that cannot be explained by science alone...as in MIRACLES.

and btw it is impossible to trace back to adam because the male chromisome you cannot trace back past paternity of living beings. however, the female chromisome is able to be traced, and has been to Africa.

also there is no time frame for when God created the earth, 6000 years ago is just a time frame used in the bible by men who had a time frame COMPLETLY different from ours.

also God according to the bible created adam last. that means dinosaurs and pre-historic things could live and still might have lived at the time of adam.

and i always have questions for those who believe in creation based on science. everything has an origin and in a person of faith's belief that origin is God. How could the particles and cells that "created" the earth come to be?? how was space created? how was the passing of time created? and how can the order of the universe just come to be? SCIENCE can explain that if the sun was just a TINY bit hotter life on earth would not exist. how did the circle of life just Happen to hit it off right and get the 1/1,000,000 of a chance to have an ordered environment that could produce life? and one more how do you explain the moral conscience of a human cmpared to an animal? humans know what we are doing and can feel emotion. animals have functions based on instinct. the difference between humans and animals is we KNOW what we do and CHOOSE to do it by using a CONSCIENCE. those three things are things that go beyond science.

no personal offense to those who do not believe in religion, but in my opinion, human life and the origins of life is something that transcends basic science. Moral conscience and the ablility to LOVE is not a NATURAL thing. God gave us science to explain how the universe HE made works. but some things just aren't explained. So rock on GOD, Yahweh, or Allah whateva you want to call him!!!!!!!
Here we go . . . lol.
There are no such things as miracles. Example: You'd probably call someone getting in a severe car crash and surviving a miracle, right? It's not. It's a coincidence. Either by the way or the angle that the car was hit, or how healthy a person was determines if they live in a bad car crash. NOT. MIRACLES.
It is possible to trace back through men - they did it on the show (forgot what it was called, it was something National Geographic on the Science Channel). They took DNA from men and traced it back through the Y chromosome. It all goes back to one man.
What makes you think God created anything? Why can't people understand there is no 'force' creating things?? The reason people created faith is because they didn't have an answer for all their questions. Questions like: the molecules that created the universe and planets. You don't 'create' time, it just is. And the whole thing about Earth being in the exact right spot to create living organisms is a COINCIDENCE. It's not too hot, so the water doesn't boil, and it's not too cold so the water doesn't freeze.
The reason humans can think and created language etc. is because they EVOLVED. They evolved from primates because of their enviroment and circumstances. Humans brains evolve because they get smarter. Duh, lol. Whose to say animals don't love? Monkeys love and protect their family, just like humans do. Haven't you ever heard of neanderthals? Those are primates evolving into humans.
My God is the earth. The earth is the only reason all of us are alive. EVOLUTION.
Okay, that's me lecture for today. Lol.

[Quiet Tempest]

I read a really good essay on this topic I want to share.


The conflict between the rationality of science and the irrationality of faith has been disputed for centuries. Science's method of using naturalism, rationalism and empiricism to gather and prove information is not only in fundamental conflict with the methods of the Church, but also refutes many things theists believe in. In my opinion, religion exists to give people a sense of social order and completeness, and to explain the questions posed by the infinite cosmos. When these ideas are challenged, some may feel out of place and incomplete, because theology is supposedly a divine source of information. As we have evolved, our technology has evolved, and scientists have been able to disprove some of the theories that were previously posed by the Church. However, throughout history, scientific fact has often been viciously denied by the outside world. When Galileo challenged the old world theories of geocentricism by unveiling evidence that proved that the Earth orbited around the sun, the Church, who held the geocentric view, prohibited Galileo from doing further research, and ostracized him as a heretic. Even today, Darwin's theory of the evolution of species is still very controversial, and often misinterpreted. Both Galileo, who unveiled the truth about the physics and the universe, and Darwin, who challenged Creationism, were met with a great deal of opposition from society.

However, do these ideas really debunk the Christian theology? Does the discovery of evolution suddenly prove God's non-existence? I think not, nor should science precede over theology, or vice versa. However, scientific claims do make many theists antsy because it proves that some of their faith is based around inaccurate claims. The natural thing to do when under attack is to protect your beliefs, and thus, the most pious of Christians do not support Darwin's claims. Something I think everyone needs to realize, theist or atheist, is that we have underlying faith in our own perception. Ultimately, our theology and scientific data should not be taken as anymore than what it is - speculation about what we believe is most likely to be true. Scientific data can be dated; what Ptolemy believed 200 years ago, and what was accepted as valid scientific data, was later disproven by people who had more advanced tools to work with. It is pretentious to assert complete understanding of the Universe - we are constantly discovering new things. With this in mind, who knows what is possible? The unknown is present, and no one can predict what we will know in the future. Is recognizing the unknown an assertion in faith of what we don't understand or merely appreciation for the Universe we live in? I would hope that everyone has this in mind when they establish their beliefs, and chooses a side to what they believe is true. Strangely enough, agnostics are often stereotyped as people who cannot make up their minds, when if fact, I think they've merely recognized what others have overlooked - that as of now, neither science nor theology, however valid it may seem, can prove anything about the nature of God. I might also add that no matter how many books or theories that supposedly refute or support God's existence, either viewpoint is faith, because we cannot make any claim with absolute certainty of it's validity. Theists have faith in the existence of God, often based through the Bible, Qur'an, or Torah. Atheists will often base their non-belief in God through available scientific theory, stating that they don't believe in God until they're given independently verifiable evidence. However, it is a common misconception that all atheists deny even the possibility of God! There are people who do believe this, however, most atheists know that their non-belief in God is not absolute, and are open to evidence that would prove them wrong, just as science is open to any evidence that would disprove their theories. I believe strong atheism, which denies the possibility of God, requires as much faith as Christianity does. To me, both extremes, which assert pure and infallible evidence are leaps of faith; to have such confidence in your perceptual abilities seems pretentious.

I think we all need to take a step back from the institution of religion for a moment and examine our society. We need to realize that in the end, nothing can objectively ensure the validity of any belief. Faith is a strictly personal thing, and should not be imposed upon anyone. In addition, I think we need to realize that each person values different things in their lives; some value personal experience, others value the purity of knowledge. When faith goes beyond one's personal preference and begins affecting others, First Amendment issues start to arise. We live in a society where personal beliefs govern many of our laws and actions, for better or for worse. The subtle integration of religion into politics and other aspects of our lives happens, but it should not be so. We say we have a separation between Church and State, however, currently, there are militant efforts to instill religion in schools. Religionists state that there are many reasons for this: one could be an effort to raise morality in light of heightened school violence. It is understandable that many want to regard religion as the source of morality, however, this should not be so. I know I've found myself in difficult moral dilemmas with theist friends, and have made just decisions on my own, without relying on scripture to help me. The fact is that religion [or lack thereof] is not going to make you moral. In my opinion, morality should not be based on "What Would Jesus Do?" but rather on what you believe will cause the most good. In light of this, the recent conflict of teaching evolution in Kansas public schools seems absurd. It has gotten to the point where children cannot even be taught about what the different theologies are, as if learning about them in a literary or historical sense is an attempt at conversion. I am a believer in non-religious public schools - to avoid teaching evolution because it conflicts with creationism seems strange, and it also seems silly to avoid learning about the basic tenets of faith that most religions share. Educating yourself about the many belief systems of the world is important, and even if you do not agree with them, it is important to understand how they've affected history and literature.

You can see the full essay HERE (http://www.str.com.br/English/Atheos/essay.htm )

[enelya]

Science's girl... In a way, I need to "see to believe" and sometimes, faith for me is just not enough :s

[Poetic Girl]

I'm more a person of science. Love to talk with friends about the universe, the big bang etc.
But faith is also very interresting.

[DeathFromAbove]

I am definitely a person of science, I mean I used to believe in faith around the same time I had faith in Santa Claus.

One question I have to Christians/Catholics, if the bible says incest is wrong, then how the hell did we come to be according to the bible. The bible says Adam and Eve had 2 sons and 3 daughters, it kind of contradicts itself. (Don't get me wrong, I am against incest.)
And why does the bible two versions of Genesis?

[~Paula~]

Heidi, there are just some things that cannot be explained by science alone...as in MIRACLES.

and btw it is impossible to trace back to adam because the male chromisome you cannot trace back past paternity of living beings. however, the female chromisome is able to be traced, and has been to Africa.

also there is no time frame for when God created the earth, 6000 years ago is just a time frame used in the bible by men who had a time frame COMPLETLY different from ours.

also God according to the bible created adam last. that means dinosaurs and pre-historic things could live and still might have lived at the time of adam.

and i always have questions for those who believe in creation based on science. everything has an origin and in a person of faith's belief that origin is God. How could the particles and cells that "created" the earth come to be?? how was space created? how was the passing of time created? and how can the order of the universe just come to be? SCIENCE can explain that if the sun was just a TINY bit hotter life on earth would not exist. how did the circle of life just Happen to hit it off right and get the 1/1,000,000 of a chance to have an ordered environment that could produce life? and one more how do you explain the moral conscience of a human cmpared to an animal? humans know what we are doing and can feel emotion. animals have functions based on instinct. the difference between humans and animals is we KNOW what we do and CHOOSE to do it by using a CONSCIENCE. those three things are things that go beyond science.

no personal offense to those who do not believe in religion, but in my opinion, human life and the origins of life is something that transcends basic science. Moral conscience and the ablility to LOVE is not a NATURAL thing. God gave us science to explain how the universe HE made works. but some things just aren't explained. So rock on GOD, Yahweh, or Allah whateva you want to call him!!!!!!!

You don't know how much i wanna hug you right now!!!

I'm a person of Faith..but that doesn't mean that i don't like racionalism and logic..the thing is that many people confuses faith with religion, i don't have a religion, i believe in God but i don't buy the crap some religions sell to us... and on that subject is wrong that many people critizes faith as in being catholic, the catholic church has made a lot of mistakes because everything in this life pretty much becomes a matter or power.. but is the error of some people, that is completely separate from Faith and God and the real thing... lol i could go on forever!

:) in the show however i'm on Jack's side, his rationalism and science, because to me (and my believes) Locke's "faith" is put on something completely wrong..totally fake..

Good topic, a delicate one i think..

(and i don't know but if i offended somebody i'm sorry, about this thing you never know when you are doing it)

[DeathFromAbove]

:) in the show however i'm on Jack's side, his rationalism and science, because to me (and my believes) Locke's "faith" is put on something completely wrong..totally fake..



How do you know his faith is put on something completely wrong/totally fake? He just has faith in something other than you. Its like saying just because a person believes in a different religion, that they are wrong.

[Adelheid]

in the show however i'm on Jack's side, his rationalism and science, because to me (and my believes) Locke's "faith" is put on something completely wrong..totally fake..
You think his 'faith' is fake, but he would say the same to yours. It really bugs me when people say things like 'your faith is wrong, mine is right.' And who's to say that all faith isn't fake? It is. IMO. Like I've said a million times before, people made it up. Ugh. :confused: :p Ignorant hypocrites . . . :censored:

[Nikiwi]

One question I have to Christians/Catholics, if the bible says incest is wrong, then how the hell did we come to be according to the bible. The bible says Adam and Eve had 2 sons and 3 daughters, it kind of contradicts itself. (Don't get me wrong, I am against incest.)
And why does the bible two versions of Genesis?

Alright. I'll try to answer this as best I can(since I don't know everything, and am still learning). I have several theories of my own interpreted by the Bible. In Genesis 1:26-27, it says...
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. But not until chapter 2 does it talk about Adam being created, then Eve being created from him. So...(these are just the ramblings of a teenager), I think that God also created other people before Adam and Eve, but A & E were the start of the bloodline of Jesus, so he concentrated on them. Also, after Cain kills Able, the Bible talks about him going to another town and meeting other people. It just makes me think that there were other people that A & E's descendants...procreated with.

And, what do you mean by two Genesis'? I'm sorry, that just confuses me. Where's the second one exactly?

Edit: Alright...uhm...how do you know that faith is fake? I mean, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. You can't see air, but you can feel it. You need it to survive. What right do any of us have to say that any other person's religion(and yes, atheism is a religion. Religion is defined as something someone believes in) is wrong or doesn't exist? If you need proof, what proof do you have that there is no God?

[Adelheid]

Alright...uhm...how do you know that faith is fake? I mean, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. You can't see air, but you can feel it. You need it to survive. What right do any of us have to say that any other person's religion(and yes, atheism is a religion. Religion is defined as something someone believes in) is wrong or doesn't exist? If you need proof, what proof do you have that there is no God?
Tu shei! Or however the frick you spell it . . .
Yeah but how can you know that there is a God? If you can't see it, or there's no evidence 'he' even exists, how can you know 'he's' there? Because you made it up?? Exactly.

[Nikiwi]

Okay. That's why it's called faith. I don't KNOW that there's a God. But I see evidence of him around me all the time. Do you really think that the earth is perfectly in place and just right so that we can live here just...coincidentally? Everything in thise universe is perfectly put togehter. Every aspect of our survival has been thought out. Even Thomas Edison - who was an adamant atheist and scientist - said that through his studies, he agreed that there had to be something - he wouldn't say a god - like a Supreme Being keeping everything in place. I know of a man who spent 20+ years trying to disprove Christianity. He thought of every argument he could, and in the end, he ended up a Christian himself because he said that there was no way he could disprove God.

And for the dinosaur thing, they weren't extinct before man arrived. In Psalms, David talks about seeing dinosaurs and in Leviticus, they writers talk about it, too.

[LovelyLight]

Ok, I've been reading some of these conversations and this is getting pretty much out of hand. Don't get me wrong, we can speak our opinions about what we think, and disagree with other people's commants, but please don't start bashing everyone else. It's not very nice. :worry:

[Nikiwi]

Yes please(I'm sorry if you think I bashed you). I mean, we just have different opinions.

[LovelyLight]

I'm not talking to one person in particular. I just mean, don't get too offensive.

[Quiet Tempest]

I am definitely a person of science, I mean I used to believe in faith around the same time I had faith in Santa Claus.

One question I have to Christians/Catholics, if the bible says incest is wrong, then how the hell did we come to be according to the bible. The bible says Adam and Eve had 2 sons and 3 daughters, it kind of contradicts itself. (Don't get me wrong, I am against incest.)
And why does the bible two versions of Genesis?

In Christianity's defense, their Holy Bible is a far cry from its original format. It was originally in Hebrew and Aramaic (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament). Christian dogma calls for Christians to proselytize and in order to do that, their religious texts had to be translated to the languages of the people in other countries. The missionaries from Constantinople, Saints Cyril and Methodios, sent to Christianize the Slavic peoples in the 9th century, first translated the Bible and the ritual books into the language of the people. Unique characteristics such as idioms and colloquialisms make it impossible for an accurate translation of the meaning of the original Language.

The translation of the Bible into the English language coincided with the invention of the printing press and the period of Reformation (15th -16th centuries). Before this time the use of Bible in the West was forbidden in any language other than Latin. The Latin translation, from the original Hebrew and Greek, was made by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It became the authoritative Bible for the Western Church and was 'known as the Vulgate. The reading of the Bible, even in the Latin, was forbidden the lay people without permission. This denial by the authorities of the Western Church was one of the main reasons for the Protestant Reformation. Therefore, the first act of the first reformer, Martin Luther, was the translation of the Bible into German in 1522, which translation was the main factor in the establishment of the German language. Before the Reformation and the printing press, various parts of the Bible had been translated into English from the Latin Vulgate. It should be noted that before the Reformation there was no complete translation of the Bible in English.

The first translation of the Bible into English from the original languages, Hebrew and Greek, and the first which was printed was that of William Tyndale in c.1523. Tyndale's English translation of the entire Bible was the basis for the many other English translations that followed. The subsequent English versions are Coverdale's Bible, 1535; Thomas Mathew's Bible, 1537; the Great Bible, 1539; the Geneva Bible, 1560, and the Bishop's Bible, 1568. Also the Rheims-Duae's in 1582 was translated from the Latin Vulgate. Within approximately 50 years from the time of Tyndale's first printed translations the above six translations were made. It must be noted, however, that none of these English translations was accepted as an authorized English version, because of general dissatisfaction with them and the many mistakes found in them. Therefore, after 30 years another attempt to translate the Bible anew into English was made by a conference in England, where a new version of the Bible was suggested to King James. King James was convinced of the need of a new English translation of the Bible. He appointed 54 scholars to undertake the task. These scholars used the Bishop's Bible of 1568 as a basis, but earlier English versions were also, taken into consideration, especially Tyndale's.

These 54 scholars, appointed to translate a new, original English version, failed because they used the earlier English translation which had many mistakes. Thus theirs was a new revision not a new translation. Regardless, this new version was received with great enthusiasm and happiness, and within a generation it displaced all other English translations. This new version became known as the King James Version, or the Authorized Version. This King James Version was printed in 1611, and has become the familiar form of the Bible for many English-speaking generations. The King James Version was the only version, that bore the royal authority and was "appointed to be read in churches." It is characterized as "the noblest monument of English prose.", The King James Version has played a prominent role in forming the personal character of the church and institutions of the English-speaking people.

Yet, even this King James Version was not well-received nor free of criticism by some. Nevertheless, it has prevailed through the centuries and is stiff held in great esteem today, both by preachers and lay people, despite its defects, which were, noted more clearly in the mid-nineteenth century, and more so today. The Greek and Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible possessed today were unknown to the 54 scholars of the King James Version. The manuscripts of the Bible which were found later pointed out more clearly the serious defects of the King James Version. This fact convinced the Church of England in 1870 to make a revision of the King James translation. This revision was published in 1881 (N.T.), 1885 (O.T.) and was known as the English Revised, Version of the Bible, which included the Apocrypha printed in 1895,. However, to its detriment, this committee of revisers included only Anglican scholars. This version was not accepted by the vast majority of local churches and people, who. cherished the King James Version.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7068.asp

This could possibly explain *some* of the contradictory passages in the Bible. I'm an Atheist, myself. I have nothing against Christians. I have family and friends largely involved in Christianity. My only complaint is that there are far too many Christian zealots in powerful seats that spark intolerance and hatred for nonChristians and people who aren't fundamentalists, like themselves, like John Ashcroft, George Bush, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jack Chick, etc..

My primary reason for not jumping back on the Christian bandwagon is this:

Why would God need to sacrifice Himself in order to save His creation/people from Himself? Also there is NO mention of the "Holy Trinity" anywhere in the Bible (if you can prove me wrong, please, by all means..) ... so how did that become such a major part is some Christian sects?

[Nikiwi]

Wow. That was brilliant, Tempest. And even today, there are several other versions with more modern speech like the New King James, NIV, New Living Translation, the Message...

And true, there are zealots on both sides promoting bias. And also on both sides are people promoting peace and understanding. I find that people are MUCH more willing to listen to your opinion if you don't attack theirs. Say, if you attack my faith, you'll just make me more opposed to yours.

[Quiet Tempest]

Wow. That was brilliant, Tempest. And even today, there are several other versions with more modern speech like the New King James, NIV, New Living Translation, the Message...

And true, there are zealots on both sides promoting bias. And also on both sides are people promoting peace and understanding. I find that people are MUCH more willing to listen to your opinion if you don't attack theirs. Say, if you attack my faith, you'll just make me more opposed to yours.

That's exactly how I feel. Of course, in my case it's not my faith you'd be opposed to.. it's my lack thereof. ;)

There will always be opposition when it comes to theology and secularism. Christians believe that their way of life is being threatened by nonChristians and Atheists fear that the country is becoming a theocracy. It's just up to us to find a happy medium and all get along.

[Nikiwi]

Yeah. But I do feel that some people are going too far. Yes, I agree that teachers shouldn't force their non-Christian students to pray and such, but why take a little plaque of the Ten Commandments out of a court building? Or take the words "Under God" out of the pledge? Those things have been around for centuries. Why now? Sorry, it just confuses me.

[LovelyLight]

Well put, Nikiwi and Quiet Temptest! Couldn't have said it better myself. But I do think that the taking "Under God" part out of the pledge is a little harsh. If some kids don't want to say the pledge with that part in it, they should do 2 pledges in the morning for those who believe and those who don't.

[Nikiwi]

Yay! We're getting along. Most of these discussions end badly! Like in my middle school(digital academy) we have discussion boards, and on the World Issues one, we were talking about religion. It got so ugly - mainly this one kid attacking everyone on both sides - that the principal just deleted the whole board so we could never talk about it again. Yeah. But this is good.

Edit: Hmmm...maybe. Or those who don't want to say it just don't say it. Or those who do want to say it just add it in themselves. *shrug* lol

[sawyer'sgirl]

you know why can't the world and america especially just accept that ppl are going to have different religions and some don't have one?!? and prayer in school is a right because this country is FREE. and the "under God" is just what our country was founded on. it was founded by men who believed in God and dedicated this country to him. it is what our founding fathers founded this country on, and now we should all only respect that...believer or not. but i am VERY glad that we get along on this board and can discuss such a delicate issue. luv you all!!!!! :grouphug:

[Adelheid]

I hope I haven't offended anyone by what I've said. It's just my opinion, and when I have a strong opinion, you better watch out! Lol.
Do you really think that the earth is perfectly in place and just right so that we can live here just...coincidentally?
Yep. Actually, I think it just happens to be that we're in the right spot. We're here because the earth is in the perfect spot, not the earth is in a perfect spot for us. Because it's in the perfect spot, that's why we're here. Because it was the perfect temperature and there was enough water so that living organisms could form . . . and eventually become humans.

[tetaelzbieta]

and the "under God" is just what our country was founded on. it was founded by men who believed in God and dedicated this country to him.

Many of the founding fathers were atheists, actually, and the country certainly wasn't dedicated to the Christian god. But, I agree completely with what you said about prayer in schools.

[Quiet Tempest]

Congress inserted the words "under God" into the pledge in 1954 as a means of advancing religion at a time when the nation was engaged in a battle against the doctrines of atheistic communism (The McCarthy witch hunts). This was, and still is, a slap in the face of citizens who are not Christian.

As for founding fathers. The following are a few quotes from them:

"The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian docrtrine" G. Washington

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature" . Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"It does me not injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or not god. Neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Thomas Jefferson

"The bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion" A. Lincoln

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any other church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." Thomas Paine

Our country was founded on democracy, not Christianity.

"The principal framers of the American political system wanted no religious parties in national politics. They crafted a constitutional order that intended to make a person's religious convictions, or his lack of religious convictions, irrelevant in judging the value of his political opinion or in assessing his qualifications to hold politicaloffice." Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore, The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness (New York: W.W. Norton, 1996), p. 23.

"So succesful were the drafters of the Constitution in defining government in secular terms that one of the most powerful criticisms of the Constitution when ratified and for succeeding decades was that it was indifferent to Christianity and God. It was denounced by many as a godless document, which is precisely what it is." Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore, The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness (New York: W.W. Norton, 1996), p. 23.

I'm not trying to step on toes here. I just wanted to point out some things.

As for the prayer in schools. I don't think that prayer or the Bible need be removed from schools. I do think that pressing students to join in prayer is offensive. I think that children need to be exposed to religions because they have influenced our growth as a society, but focus should be put on all major world religions, not just Christianity. I want my daughter to understand concepts of religion, but I'm not going to force her to be religious.

[slackerwink]

I'm a liberal Christian who believes in evolution. It's not hard to reconcile science with my faith. It's fascinating to watch how theistic evolution came to be because I believe it was God who started it all, the long process that took us to where we are today from the past. What's so hard about that?

[~Paula~]

I hate fights! so if after this someone thinks i'm starting one i'm not!!! i understand that this subject is pretty delicate so i'm not going "against" anyone or some opinion...i'm just speaking my mind.. :)

in the show however i'm on Jack's side, his rationalism and science, because to me (and my believes) Locke's "faith" is put on something completely wrong..totally fake.. How do you know his faith is put on something completely wrong/totally fake? He just has faith in something other than you. Its like saying just because a person believes in a different religion, that they are wrong.

The thing is that we're talking about a tv show.. people kinda relates to some characters more than others... so i can't help being more on the side of Jack's point of view, and you're right about what you said, i just don't feel related to Locke and something that tv writers invented for him to have faith in, and act according to those believes .. that's why i feel more of a science person when it comes to Lost... I totally understand why you replied to my post though, and if it came out like i'm a person who judges others and "knows" what believes are right or wrong i apologize i'm not that person at all.. i was just saying that i can't relate to Locke because, yes, i don't agree with him... :) everybody's entitled to his opinions, right?

You think his 'faith' is fake, but he would say the same to yours. It really bugs me when people say things like 'your faith is wrong, mine is right.' And who's to say that all faith isn't fake? It is. IMO. Like I've said a million times before, people made it up. Ugh. Ignorant hypocrites . . .

As i said is a tv show! so going from a tv island (which i think is what Locke has his faith on) to real people's believes is such a big step.. again as i said before i'm sorry if it came like i was judging or something.. i was saying my opinion, but when you go and call someone "Ignorant hypocrites" refering to people who have faith is kinda rude...i know you never intended to be offensive, and even though we have such different point of views i totally respect yours and understand where you come from, because believe it or not, one of the main things when it comes to religions and everyone's faith is Tolerance... so i don't go saying to people "I think your believes are wrong and mine are right" and go preach about it, i simply don't agree with others..people have in their minds and hearts their own "truth" and live according to it, and i firmly believe that nobody has the right to judge or try to change that..but you CAN have your oppinion about it... and agree or disagree... as i read in some posts if maybe in the world we'd stop trying to force people into believing or not believing in *whatever* we'd be a lot better...

Again, this is such a delicate subject that you never know when you're offending someone so if with something i said i did it, i'm deeply sorry...

:) i'm done! Peace!

[Quiet Tempest]

And why does the bible two versions of Genesis?

Alright. I'll try to answer this as best I can(since I don't know everything, and am still learning). I have several theories of my own interpreted by the Bible. In Genesis 1:26-27, it says...
But not until chapter 2 does it talk about Adam being created, then Eve being created from him. So...(these are just the ramblings of a teenager), I think that God also created other people before Adam and Eve, but A & E were the start of the bloodline of Jesus, so he concentrated on them. Also, after Cain kills Able, the Bible talks about him going to another town and meeting other people. It just makes me think that there were other people that A & E's descendants...procreated with.

And, what do you mean by two Genesis'? I'm sorry, that just confuses me. Where's the second one exactly?


Incest is condemned in Leviticus, but in other books of the Bible, it happened. *shrug* See for yourself.

Incest in the Bible:
Gen.20:12
"And yet indeed, she [Sarah] is my [Abraham's] sister; she is the daughter of my father."
Gen.17:16
"And I will bless her [Sarah], and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her."
Ex.6:20
"And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses."

In reference to Adam & Eve and their offspring.. When Cain was banished, he went to the Land of Nod where he took a wife... so there was life outside of the garden. Go figure. Anyway, Cain and Mrs. Cain had a son named Enoch and Cain built a city and named it after Enoch. So...Bible Trivia time.. did the Christian god create an extra civilization outside of Eden? Who the heck was Mrs. Cain? Who created Nod? We may never know.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what DeathfromAbove meant by "two versions of Genesis" was two conflicting accounts of Creationism:

Gen.1:25-27
(Humans were created after the other animals.) VS. Gen.2:18-19
(Humans were created before the other animals.)
and
Gen.1:27
(The first man and woman were created simultaneously.) VS. Gen.2:18-22
(The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)

[Nikiwi]

Hmmm....yeah. That's confused me, too. *shakes head*

I'm a liberal Christian who believes in evolution. It's not hard to reconcile science with my faith. It's fascinating to watch how theistic evolution came to be because I believe it was God who started it all, the long process that took us to where we are today from the past. What's so hard about that?

Yeah. There are tons of veiws of creation - even in the Christian circle. There's theistic evolution, which states(correct me if I'm wrong, please) that God created the earth but let it take its own course from there; ie evolution. There's the Gap theory, which states that there's a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 1:1 talks about God creating the Heavens and the earth, and Genesis 1:2 says that the earth was "void and without shape." The most popular one is about God creating the earth in 6 days and resting on the 7th. Then there's the Time theory, which says that in creation times, a day could have been hundreds of years. It sounds more plausible that the earth was created over several thousand years than six days. And there's a couple I'm forgetting...

Gen.20:12
"And yet indeed, she [Sarah] is my [Abraham's] sister; she is the daughter of my father."
Gen.17:16
"And I will bless her [Sarah], and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her."
I believe - not sure - that when Abraham is talking about Sarah being his sister, he's talking spiritually. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't brother-sister. *shrug*

[Adelheid]

As i said is a tv show! so going from a tv island (which i think is what Locke has his faith on) to real people's believes is such a big step.. again as i said before i'm sorry if it came like i was judging or something.. i was saying my opinion, but when you go and call someone "Ignorant hypocrites" refering to people who have faith is kinda rude...i know you never intended to be offensive, and even though we have such different point of views i totally respect yours and understand where you come from, because believe it or not, one of the main things when it comes to religions and everyone's faith is Tolerance... so i don't go saying to people "I think your believes are wrong and mine are right" and go preach about it, i simply don't agree with others..people have in their minds and hearts their own "truth" and live according to it, and i firmly believe that nobody has the right to judge or try to change that..but you CAN have your oppinion about it... and agree or disagree... as i read in some posts if maybe in the world we'd stop trying to force people into believing or not believing in *whatever* we'd be a lot better...
I didn't mean people who believe in a faith/religion are ignorant hypocrites, I meant the people who say things like "My religion is better than yours". And I'm sure no one on here would say something like that 'cause you're all cool. And yeah, TV shows are definintely different than real life.
So yeah, not trying to offend anybody, it's all cool. :coolguy:

ETA: Oh yeah, when I say the pledge in school, I leave out the 'under God' part, 'cause I don't believe in God. I don't really think the pledge should be changed, but it's kinda weird when today we have so many people in the country who have a different religion or no religion at all, so making them say Under God in the pledge is kinda mean. So, if anyone doesn't believe in God or Christianity, I think they just have to not say the under God part and leave it at that.

[Quiet Tempest]

Hmmm....yeah. That's confused me, too. *shakes head*



Yeah. There are tons of veiws of creation - even in the Christian circle. There's theistic evolution, which states(correct me if I'm wrong, please) that God created the earth but let it take its own course from there; ie evolution. There's the Gap theory, which states that there's a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 1:1 talks about God creating the Heavens and the earth, and Genesis 1:2 says that the earth was "void and without shape." The most popular one is about God creating the earth in 6 days and resting on the 7th. Then there's the Time theory, which says that in creation times, a day could have been hundreds of years. It sounds more plausible that the earth was created over several thousand years than six days. And there's a couple I'm forgetting...


I believe - not sure - that when Abraham is talking about Sarah being his sister, he's talking spiritually. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't brother-sister. *shrug*

Fundamental (literal) Christians believe that the Bible is God's word and refuse to bend when others point out obvious contradictions or errors. It's these "fundies" that promote ignorance and hatemongering. Those Christians who understand that their holy book isn't 100% accurate and written by Man, not God, have my respect.

Abraham married his sister (half-sister by his father), and God blessed their marriage (Gen.17:15-16). But such incestuous marriages are condemned in Lev.18:9, 20:17, Dt.27:22.

I didn't mean people who believe in a faith/religion are ignorant hypocrites, I meant the people who say things like "My religion is better than yours". And I'm sure no one on here would say something like that 'cause you're all cool. And yeah, TV shows are definintely different than real life.
So yeah, not trying to offend anybody, it's all cool. :coolguy:

ETA: Oh yeah, when I say the pledge in school, I leave out the 'under God' part, 'cause I don't believe in God. I don't really think the pledge should be changed, but it's kinda weird when today we have so many people in the country who have a different religion or no religion at all, so making them say Under God in the pledge is kinda mean. So, if anyone doesn't believe in God or Christianity, I think they just have to not say the under God part and leave it at that.

The "under God" part was not part of the original pledge. Congress inserted the words "under God" into the pledge in 1954 as a means of advancing religion at a time when the nation was engaged in a battle against the doctrines of atheistic communism (The McCarthy witch hunts). This was, and still is, a slap in the face of citizens who are not Christian.

[DeathFromAbove]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what DeathfromAbove meant by "two versions of Genesis" was two conflicting accounts of Creationism:

Gen.1:25-27
(Humans were created after the other animals.) VS. Gen.2:18-19
(Humans were created before the other animals.)
and
Gen.1:27
(The first man and woman were created simultaneously.) VS. Gen.2:18-22
(The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)

Yeah thats what I meant. I guess back when they wrote the bible they had really bad editors. :p (just poking a little fun, no offense to anyone.)

[Quiet Tempest]

Just bad transcriptionists..... not to mention the omission (or destruction?) of missing texts.

[plumpudding]

Okay. This is gonna be long. FYI. I'm not attacking anyone, just explaining my POV.

First, the issues of the Genesis thing. Genesis 1 is supposed to be very poetic. It establishes a pattern, a rhythm (if i spelled that right). The Bible is a work of art and God is an artist. He understood that to explain right there the exact way that humans (man and woman) were created would mess up the pattern. That is why it gives 2 accounts of man's creations.

Secondly, the Bible does not give us all of the information. Adam lived 930 years. We can assume Eve lived about the same, if not longer. The Bible says Adam had "other sons and daughters." Genesis 5:4. This tells me, personally, that Adam and Eve could have had who knows how many kids. Also, Adam and Eve possessed all of the genes we see today, except genetic mutations that are passed on through gametes (sperm and egg). Because of the length of their lives back then, a brother and sister could have been married and 100 yrs apart in age.

Continuing on the issue of incest, it is true the Bible does condemn incest, then provides examples of people committing it. The Bible gives examples of murder, yet one of the Ten Commandments is "Do not murder." People are human. The people in the Bible are human. The Christians today are human. Many may be like ignorant hypocrites, it is true, and that is horrible. But not all of us are. Please, do not generalize based on a few people you have met. YOu don't do that for African-Americans, do you? Why should you do it for Christians?

I believe in both science and faith. The more I study science, the more i find it backs up my faith. True science, correct and free of errors, does back up faith. All civilizations of the earth have histories dating back to one point. The Bible dates this point as the Flood, when the "expanse in the sky" (Genesis 1:14) let loose all the water it was holding. Some archeologists were excavating the ancient city of Uz and found an 8-foot thick layer of dirt that only could have been put there by a great deal of water. It was dated to the point where all civilization began.

I look at the world around me and I see such incricacy and such complexity, how can it be coincidence? The DNA molecule is made of four subunits. Guanine and Adenine are long and Cynine and Thynine are short. (I'm sorry if i'm spelling these wrong.) These link up to form two strands, two completely even strands. Guanine and Cynine always link up and Adenine and Thynine always link up. This is Complimentary Base System. This is so when the DNA reproduces for new cells, it reproduces accurately. Every three subunits code for one amino acid. A string of amino acids make up a protien, which is what our bodies are made of. It is so much more complex than this, it took me a week to understand it completely, so I won't go on here. But learning about it made me realize how incredibly detailed our world is and how utterly unlikely it is that it all came about by chance.

One last point. If we evolved from monkeys, where does that leave us? What is the point in life? Is it to get as much as we can? Why do we ask these kinds of questions? Why has every single civilization in history created some kind of diety? Why do we build lasting relationships and love people if we know we will all die?

This is why.

We are made for more than this world. We are made for eternity. NOt our bodies, certainly. But our spirits. The part that compels us to love, to hate, to search for answers, whether they be in faith, science, both, or neither. We are made for eternity. That is why we continue to reproduce, to love, to build friendships when we know that we will all die.

[Nikiwi]

Wow. That was be-a-utiful, Danielle!!! I just...wow. Hmmm....I agree with you on too many points - even though I haven't learned about the four DNA things yet. lol Amazing.

[josh_is_my_lover]

faith. i have been through alot of stuff in my life. and my faith has always helped me over come it. faith is hope and trust that there will always be something better. that has helped me grow from situations where i thought i would go into complete dispare. i am sooooo blessed to have been raised by catholic parents who have taught me that no matter what you can always turn back to God. Also i do think science is flawed...and corrupt. for example embryo stem-cell research and abortion.

[Quiet Tempest]

Okay. This is gonna be long. FYI. I'm not attacking anyone, just explaining my POV.

First, the issues of the Genesis thing. Genesis 1 is supposed to be very poetic. It establishes a pattern, a rhythm (if i spelled that right). The Bible is a work of art and God is an artist. He understood that to explain right there the exact way that humans (man and woman) were created would mess up the pattern. That is why it gives 2 accounts of man's creations.

Secondly, the Bible does not give us all of the information. Adam lived 930 years. We can assume Eve lived about the same, if not longer. The Bible says Adam had "other sons and daughters." Genesis 5:4. This tells me, personally, that Adam and Eve could have had who knows how many kids. Also, Adam and Eve possessed all of the genes we see today, except genetic mutations that are passed on through gametes (sperm and egg). Because of the length of their lives back then, a brother and sister could have been married and 100 yrs apart in age.

Continuing on the issue of incest, it is true the Bible does condemn incest, then provides examples of people committing it. The Bible gives examples of murder, yet one of the Ten Commandments is "Do not murder." People are human. The people in the Bible are human. The Christians today are human. Many may be like ignorant hypocrites, it is true, and that is horrible. But not all of us are. Please, do not generalize based on a few people you have met. YOu don't do that for African-Americans, do you? Why should you do it for Christians?


There are hundreds of contradictions in the Bible and Christian Apologetics will continue to find meanings behind them or ways to justify them.

I believe in both science and faith. The more I study science, the more i find it backs up my faith. True science, correct and free of errors, does back up faith. All civilizations of the earth have histories dating back to one point. The Bible dates this point as the Flood, when the "expanse in the sky" (Genesis 1:14) let loose all the water it was holding. Some archeologists were excavating the ancient city of Uz and found an 8-foot thick layer of dirt that only could have been put there by a great deal of water. It was dated to the point where all civilization began.

Paleontologists have discovered a new skeleton in the closet of human ancestry that is likely to force science to revise, if not scrap, current theories of human origins.

The fossil, 3.5 million years old, consists of a partial skull and teeth that are more human-like than the accepted direct ancestor, Lucy.

The fossil is described in today's Nature as a new genus and species, Kenyanthropus platyops. The discoverers, led by Meave Leakey, wife of paleontologist Richard Leakey, say the discovery means that modern humans could have sprung from at least two possible lineages, not one. Leakey also says Kenyanthropus could replace Lucy as the best candidate on the human family tree for our direct ancestor, but she says neither Lucy nor the new fossil is necessarily "the one."

Since Lucy's partial skeleton was discovered in 1974 in Ethiopia, she has been generally accepted as the oldest known human ancestor.

Lucy's scientific name is Australopithecus afarensis. She looked very similar to a modern bonobo chimpanzee, with a small brain, a protruding face and large molar teeth. But Lucy has been losing favor over the past 10 years as the direct ancestor of the genus homo. Lucy has ape-like features not found in supposed descendants.

Kenyanthropus lived at the same time as Lucy, but farther south in an area known today as Lake Turkana, Leakey says. The hominid had a flatter face and smaller molars, which is regarded as a more human-like trait. It probably ate ripe fruits, insects and small animals that require less chewing.

Most experts agree that the fossil warrants a place as a new genus. And most say they now believe that the idea of tracing humans in a straight line back to an ancestor such as Lucy is too simplistic.

Ardipithecus ramidus is estimated to have emerged 4.4 million years ago, followed by Australopithecus aneamensis (4.2-3.9 million years ago), Australopithecus afarensis (3.9-3.0 million years ago), Australopithecus aethiopicus (2.7-2.5 million years ago), Australopithecus africanus 3.0-2.3 million years ago), Australopithecus robustus (2.0-1.0 million years ago), Australopithecus boisei (2.3-1.2 million years ago), Homo habilis (1.9-1.8 million years ago), Homo erectus (1.8 million - 300,000 years ago), Homo neanderthalensis (150,000-30,000 years ago), Homo heidelbergensis (600,000-100,000 years ago), and now Homo sapiens (100,000 years ago - present)
This is a great website if you get a chance to check it out: http://www.becominghuman.org/

If you're saying that you put your faith in science, then it debunks the creationism stories because according to fundamental Christian teachings, the Earth is only tens of thousands of years old.
Also, all of God's creations are as they were when they were created according to scripture. If that is true, evolution does not fit in.


I look at the world around me and I see such incricacy and such complexity, how can it be coincidence? The DNA molecule is made of four subunits. Guanine and Adenine are long and Cynine and Thynine are short. (I'm sorry if i'm spelling these wrong.) These link up to form two strands, two completely even strands. Guanine and Cynine always link up and Adenine and Thynine always link up. This is Complimentary Base System. This is so when the DNA reproduces for new cells, it reproduces accurately. Every three subunits code for one amino acid. A string of amino acids make up a protien, which is what our bodies are made of. It is so much more complex than this, it took me a week to understand it completely, so I won't go on here. But learning about it made me realize how incredibly detailed our world is and how utterly unlikely it is that it all came about by chance.

One last point. If we evolved from monkeys, where does that leave us? What is the point in life? Is it to get as much as we can? Why do we ask these kinds of questions? Why has every single civilization in history created some kind of diety? Why do we build lasting relationships and love people if we know we will all die?


We evolved from apes, not monkeys. Monkeys are our cousins on the evolutionary family tree. We have not stopped evolving. We ask philosophical questions because we have developed a fear of death and the unknown. What happens to our friends and family when they cease to live? We have conjured dieties to serve as a reason behind what happens to us when we die, why the sun dances across the sky each day, why grass grows, and why life comes from a woman's womb. Some of the most ancient dieties were primarily life-giving goddesses because women's ability to give life was revered. Somewhere along the way, many religions became more organized and the leaders manipulated followers and became rich and powerful. Lesser (weaker) religions were overthrown by the more powerful religions through crusades and proselytization. It's easy to see how this practice continues even today.


This is why.

We are made for more than this world. We are made for eternity. NOt our bodies, certainly. But our spirits. The part that compels us to love, to hate, to search for answers, whether they be in faith, science, both, or neither. We are made for eternity. That is why we continue to reproduce, to love, to build friendships when we know that we will all die.

I do not know that we are eternal. I agree it's a great thought... that we'd be everlasting and we'd be reunited with our loved ones "on the other side".. Honestly, I'd love to believe that. It's a beautiful image. I just don't see any way that it could be so.

[josh_is_my_lover]

the thing about faith is that it is hope and trust. i trust in God that there is a heaven and a hell and my actions will decide where i go. i don't know how one could live a meaningfull life not thinking there was something better....and eternal.

[breakmyfall]

i am a faith kindof guy... science is so screwed up nowadays... just a guys opinion

i would like to quote "the glass menagerie" (had to read it for school)

"some people think science clears up all the mysteries for us, in my opinion it only creates more"

[InnerUniverse]

I'd say both. I will most likely believe in science more than faith, but I have really far fetched beliefs in some people's point of view (I believe in reincarnation, amanism, karma, etc).

[Liia]

Science all the way. Scientists never claim absolute knowledge, or truth, unlike people of Faith, but as far as I'm concerned they make a hell of a lot more sense than people fighting the 'my God can beat up your God' battle.

[plumpudding]

Okay, first, Quiet Tempest, you are right about the monkeys thing. We studied evolution in school and according to the theory of evolution, humans and monkeys are cousins; we evolved from a common ancestor. I did err in typing we evolved from monkeys. I apologize.

I understand evolution. Natural selection, the strongest survive, etc. I basically get how it works. But I believe it is a theory. The beginning of the earth has not been proved by anyone. NOne of us were there, so we all must take on faith whatever we believe, evolution or creation. And it just really bugs me when schools teach it as absolute fact, because it is called the Theory of Evolution.

I believe the reason that science dates the earth as hundreds of millions, even billions of years old, is because God created everything mature. Adam and Eve weren't babies, they were adults.

Yes, it is true there are many apparent contradictions in the Bible. Some we simply don't understand; some are translational errors from the original language, and some are taken out of context. The Bible was written over thousands of years.

Sometimes I don't understand how eternal life works, either. Sometimes the thought of it scares me to be honest. OUr human minds are so limited to this world, to what we know, we cannot comprehend things like this sometimes.

[ShadedSkies]

Im not sure of the exact meaning of that question but i think i'm more a person of science..i'm a "matter-of-fact" person. :D

[Adelheid]

the thing about faith is that it is hope and trust. i trust in God that there is a heaven and a hell and my actions will decide where i go. i don't know how one could live a meaningfull life not thinking there was something better....and eternal.
I believe in living for now. Because there is no place to go after you die. When you die, it's over. I guess that's the harsh view, but I think it's the truth. If this life wasn't meaningful, why not kill yourself to go to 'the better side'? Oh, because then you'll go to hell. *roll eyes*

[Pie]

If this life wasn't meaningful, why not kill yourself to go to 'the better side'? Oh, because then you'll go to hell. *roll eyes*
Life is meaningful. I don't want to leave anytime soon. Why would God put us here if we have no purpose? And actually, if you know Christian beliefs, you won't go to hell for killing yourself. Sure, God wouldn't be happy, but as long as...ok, I'll stop before i get torn apart.

[sawyer'sgirl]

I believe in living for now. Because there is no place to go after you die. When you die, it's over. I guess that's the harsh view, but I think it's the truth. If this life wasn't meaningful, why not kill yourself to go to 'the better side'? Oh, because then you'll go to hell. *roll eyes*

i am a firm believer in heaven and hell. can those who do not believe RESPECT are oppinion and not make smart comments. can we discuss and not argue. that can be avoided by not using sarcasm that is very rude towards someone elses religion. i'm not picking a fight with you Heidi, you know i luv you, i just think there needs to be more respect towards those who don't share ur opinion.

[Nikiwi]

I think that this life is VERY meaningful. God meant for this earth to be like Heaven(the Garden of Eden was perfect.) But then, Adam and Eve sinned, and all the troubles came into the world. So God created Heaven as a place for man to go when he died. Nowadays, I think that life on this earth is like life in the womb. It's preparation for Heaven. Just like the doctors and parents, God does everything he can to bring us into his world. And just like in pregnancies, not all of us will make it out of the womb. If you want to know what your purpose is in life, read The Purpose Driven Life. It's amazing.

This is just my opinion - not attacking anyone - but to me, it's a bit depressing to think that when you die you're just...dead. If we cease to exist after we die, then what do we work for in life? Do we work to be remembered? For fame? Money? All of those things fade away. Katherine Hepburn was the movie icon of her time. Everyone knew her name, and it was on the news for days whens she died. Yet, not one person - besides me - in my 7th grade class that I talked to knew who she was. Fame fades. Everything fades with time. So...if there's nothing after death, what's your point in life?

And I do agree with sawyer'sgirl. It is VERY hurtful when someone attacks my faith. In some of the messages, it sounds...intentionally mean. You may not be meaning it like that, but that's how it comes across.

BTW, Pie, I'm in love with your banner. :D

[Adelheid]

Nikiwi, you're being very philosophical. Lol.
But that's that harsh thing about reality. Your body has a brain, and when you die, your body dies. I'm trying to be as nice as I can about this and respect other people's opinions. I think that the people who made up religion made up heaven and hell so they feel secure about their lives and wether they did a good job, or wether they'd be able to repent, or whatever. I think heaven and hell is for weak people who can't accept the fact that when they die, it's over. I don't know how to say that in any other way without being mean. *shrugs* Sorry, I respect all your opinions, I really do. If you believe in heaven and hell, fine, you believe in it.

[Nikiwi]

Hmm...interesting. But the Bible was written by tons of people over thousands of years. I don't believe in God because I'm afraid of becoming nothing. Yes, I was raised in the church, but again, that's not why I'm a Christian. I made the personal decision to commit my life to Christ about two years ago, when I was old enough to understand everything. God doesn't want us to turn to him because we're scared of what will happen if we don't. He wants us to turn to him because he loves us, and he wants a better future for everyone.
I can't really explain how I, personally, KNOW that God is real. It's just...I can feel it. I can see it everywhere around me. Since I accepted Christ, it's helped me so much. It's not that I've convinced myself that he exists. I just know it. When I get scared, when things in my life start going caplooey - which they do quite often - I can turn to God, and, almost immediately, I'm at peace. It's not psycological. It's not mental. It's spiritual. I've felt the presence of God, and it's so strong that it can bring grown men to their knees. When I'm with God, and I can feel him around me, I know for certain that he's alive. He's not some being floating above earth and arranging our lives like we do on the Sims. He comes down, and he mingles in our lives. Sorry, but...From the things I've experienced, I can't deny it. There's always gonna be doubt. There's doubt everywhere. But it's overcoming the doubt that shows what kind of person you are.

[ShadedSkies]

Guys, it's hard to have such a debate without feeling attacked or hurt but you shouldn't feel that way for one and only reason: Noone, absolutely noone can claim to be right or wrong on that matter, for noone can proove the existence of it (Heaven or Hell) as noone can proove that nothing happens after Death. It is a very subjective matter, way different than political debates.

What i can say myself id that i am so respectful of everyone's beliefs..and if believeing in Heaven and Hell can make life and your thinking of death "easier", then that's a good thing and i don't think anyone should judge this and be sarcastic about it.

As for my opinion, as i said it before, i'm more of a science person, and don't believe in Heaven or Hell. And unlikely you Sawyer'sgirl, i think religion and believing in Heaven and Hell can, in some ways, be built on the fear of death. Facing death is quit hard, and beliving in an "after-life" probably make it easier to deal with, which i'm not saying is smthg necessarily wrong.
That's my opinion. :)

[Nikiwi]

Definitely. If we're gonna be in a spiritual discussion, people might not wanna ask for cold, hard proof. Cause there's not gonna be any physical evidence either way. It's not like a sign falls out of the sky that says "God exists" or "There is no God." It's all on faith - either way you go. If you don't believe in God, you have to take faith that God doesn't exist cause the consequences could be serious. If you do, you have to take faith that after you die, you'll see him and be with him forever. It's all just a personal decision.

[Pie]

C'mon, people, spread the love! :lotsalove:


BTW, Pie, I'm in love with your banner.
So am I. :smooch:

[Nikiwi]

lol If only he'd say yes. ;) Anywhoo...

[breakmyfall]

i think religion and believing in Heaven and Hell can, in some ways, be built on the fear of death. Facing death is quit hard, and beliving in an "after-life" probably make it easier to deal with, which i'm not saying is smthg necessarily wrong.
That's my opinion. :)


no i am not scared of death in the least bit, if i believed in the "after-life" or not. but i do believe and that makes me twice the more comfortable with death. because i trust, believe, and know there is a heaven and a hell and i, based on my actions, decide where i go. i really gotta get my philosphy teacher in here. he got his doctorate in philosophy by writing a 250 page thesis on "proving the existence of God" and it is AMAZING. and only truly stubborn ppl could not believe in God.

[Nikiwi]

Wow. I'd like to talk to him. Sounds like my old Bible teacher. We'd get him started on a subject, and he'd spend the whole class talking about it - totally forgetting the lesson. :D

Edit: Also, Danielle(plumpudding) wanted me to say this. With Christianity, it doesn't matter what you do. If you murder someone, steal, lie, cheat...whatever. It doesn't matter. When you accept Christ, the slate is wiped clean. And whenever you sin, you can ask for forgiveness, and God will keep to the "forgive and forget" policy. It's called grace. When Jesus was on the cross, and the theif next to him said "remember me when you are in Heaven" Jesus didn't say, "Well, you're gonna die in a couple of hours...there's really not enough time to do enough good things to make up for your crime." He said "Today you will be with me in paradise."

[Adelheid]

and only truly stubborn ppl could not believe in God.
Then I guess I'm really stubborn. ;) :D

[Nini]

I'm a faith gal, so...Locke, come to Nina...:D

[lockeisthechamp]

I am a man of faith. Perhaps this is why I prefer Locke to Jack. Science may sometimes seem more reasonable, but there are way too many things that happen that have no good scientific reason. I believe that my destiny is not always in my hands, and I am perfectly fine with that.

[Nikiwi]

Then I guess I'm really stubborn. ;) :D

lol I think they were talking about the people who read the essay. hehe

[ShadedSkies]

no i am not scared of death in the least bit, if i believed in the "after-life" or not. but i do believe and that makes me twice the more comfortable with death. because i trust, believe, and know there is a heaven and a hell and i, based on my actions, decide where i go. i really gotta get my philosphy teacher in here. he got his doctorate in philosophy by writing a 250 page thesis on "proving the existence of God" and it is AMAZING. and only truly stubborn ppl could not believe in God.

I don't like the way you're undirectly assuming that i am "truly stubborn" and so is a big part of the world population..I could also make you read books and theses on "the truth about Jesus and God"..it's AMAZING aswell, i assure you.
As many of us stated it, you should show more respect to those who don't believe in God, cause it's as legitimate as beliving in God, and it doesn't mean we believe in nothing. It's just a question of BELIEFS and believeing in God or not doesn't make you more right or less stubborn..looks like you're the stubborn one for thinking that beliving in God is the ONLY right thing.
Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but choose your words better before calling people stubborn!

[Nikiwi]

I think - again not sure here - that breakmyfall was talking about the people who didn't believe in God after reading that guy's essay being stubborn. Not just any old dude walking down the street who doesn't believe in God. Am I right, breakmyfall?

[Adelheid]

Oh. So you mean that people that still don't believe in God after they read that essay are really stubborn? Weel, send me that essay and we'll see! :D

[InnerUniverse]

Yeah, I guess im stubborn also since I don't believe there is a one true god, but a pantheon of gods/spirits.

I didn't even vote yet hehe.

[Quiet Tempest]

Warning: This may get long..


Science all the way. Scientists never claim absolute knowledge, or truth, unlike people of Faith, but as far as I'm concerned they make a hell of a lot more sense than people fighting the 'my God can beat up your God' battle.
http://www.fadzter.com/smilies/thumbsup.gif
I've never heard of Science Apologetics, and even if such a group did exist, I highly doubt they would criticize theological groups they way that Christian Apologetics have criticized science and scientists.
You've got to see this article (http://christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID4859|CHID40|CIID328041,00.html) I found at christianity.com. According to this rubbish, evolutionists and atheists are bomb-building terrorists and murderers.

I understand evolution. Natural selection, the strongest survive, etc. I basically get how it works. But I believe it is a theory. The beginning of the earth has not been proved by anyone. NOne of us were there, so we all must take on faith whatever we believe, evolution or creation. And it just really bugs me when schools teach it as absolute fact, because it is called the Theory of Evolution.

Theory (n) - a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

"The theory of evolution, formalized by Charles Darwin, is as much theory as is the theory of gravity, or the theory of relativity. Unlike theories of physics, biological theories, and especially evolution, have been argued long and hard in socio-political arenas. Even today, evolution is not often taught in primary schools. However, evolution is the binding force of all biological research. It is the unifying theme. In paleontology, evolution gives workers a powerful way to organize the remains of past life and better understand the one history of life. The history of thought about evolution in general and paleontological contributions specifically are often useful to the workers of today. Science, like any iterative process, draws heavily from its history."
-http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/evotheory.html

I believe the reason that science dates the earth as hundreds of millions, even billions of years old, is because God created everything mature. Adam and Eve weren't babies, they were adults.

I do not understand your statement. I'm not debating that according to the Creationist's view that Adam and his counterpart, Eve, weren't adults when created. I'm pointing out that animals we know today have evolved over the last few million or so years to become what they are today. They did not exist then. New species of animals are still emerging today.

"Salmon in a lake in Washington State have split into separate species in just 13 generations, or a mere 60-70 years. Scientists had previously believed that the evolution of new species took hundreds or thousands of years."
- http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/news/expandnews.cfm?id=541

the thing about faith is that it is hope and trust. i trust in God that there is a heaven and a hell and my actions will decide where i go. i don't know how one could live a meaningfull life not thinking there was something better....and eternal.



Are you saying that nonChristians can't live meaningful lives? Did Einstein not lead a meaningful life? Ron Reagon Jr. isn't leading a meaningful life? Susan B. Anthony (who led the effort to grant women the right to vote in the United States) didn't live a meaningful life? James Joyce? H.P. Lovecraft? Margaret Sanger? Those, just to name a few notable atheists.

This is just my opinion - not attacking anyone - but to me, it's a bit depressing to think that when you die you're just...dead. If we cease to exist after we die, then what do we work for in life? Do we work to be remembered? For fame? Money? All of those things fade away. Katherine Hepburn was the movie icon of her time. Everyone knew her name, and it was on the news for days whens she died. Yet, not one person - besides me - in my 7th grade class that I talked to knew who she was. Fame fades. Everything fades with time. So...if there's nothing after death, what's your point in life?

It is my belief that when we die, we survive death only through our loved ones memories and any marks we may have left in life. Our physical bodies die, decompose, and feed the grasses we once tred on. I don't find this depressing. My meaning in life to lead a happy life and bring forth young in order to let them experience that same joy. If you think your life is meaningless and depressing, imagine what our animal brethren might be thinking. You can't honestly think that animals don't communicate and have feelings of their own. Whale pods, wolf packs, bird flocks.. do you think they feel like they've lead meaningful lives? ;)

no i am not scared of death in the least bit, if i believed in the "after-life" or not. but i do believe and that makes me twice the more comfortable with death. because i trust, believe, and know there is a heaven and a hell and i, based on my actions, decide where i go. i really gotta get my philosphy teacher in here. he got his doctorate in philosophy by writing a 250 page thesis on "proving the existence of God" and it is AMAZING. and only truly stubborn ppl could not believe in God.



Stubborn people believe lots of things, like the fact that McDonald's fries are tastier than Burger King's or that Winter is more enjoyable than Summer. I am just stubborn enough to believe those things because that is my stubborn beliefs and no one is going to make me change my mind. Disbelief in a Creator, or God, is shared by many people. The fact that some teacher wrote a book in an attempt to share his stubborn belief does not mean that his readers will accept his belief. It's truly arrogant to believe otherwise. For hundreds of years people (stubborn or just plain stupid, you make the call) have tried to prove their personal beliefs by putting it down on paper. I've read Harry Potter dozens of times.. does that mean that he's real? Would you call me stubborn if I believed one way and not another?

[plumpudding]

I'll try to explain better.



Adam and Eve were created as adults. All of the animals that God created in the seven day period were fully mature. The earth was fully mature. If you tested any of these creations at their origin point according to the Bible, they would not seem to be only a few minutes old, they would seem to be mature, even though they were only really created a few minutes ago. Therefore, even though, according to my beliefs, the earth is only a few thousand years old, tests show it is billions of years old.
The explanation I gave has nothing to do with evolution, so I'm not sure why you mentioned it in your response. No offense, I'm just curious.

There is nothing wrong with being stubborn. I agree with your last paragraph, Quiet Tempest. I agree completely. We both have stubborn beliefs in different things, so we could probably go on for days with these kinds of discussions: arguements, rebuttals, rebuttals to those rebuttals, etc. Neither of us would change the other's mind. It would probably be a big stalemate and pretty pointless, you know?

So what do you say to a truce?

[Quiet Tempest]

I'll try to explain better.



Adam and Eve were created as adults. All of the animals that God created in the seven day period were fully mature. The earth was fully mature. If you tested any of these creations at their origin point according to the Bible, they would not seem to be only a few minutes old, they would seem to be mature, even though they were only really created a few minutes ago. Therefore, even though, according to my beliefs, the earth is only a few thousand years old, tests show it is billions of years old.
The explanation I gave has nothing to do with evolution, so I'm not sure why you mentioned it in your response. No offense, I'm just curious.



Since you said you were curious, I'll try to explain..

According to the Bible, no new things have been made by God ( The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ec 1:9).

So, what does that mean for the new species of animals that have emerged through so many thousands of years of evolution? Are they not real? What about stars? Are no stars born in the universe?

This is but one absurd notion sparked by passages in the Bible. I understand that you feel evolution is debatable. What about other aspects of this conflict?

ALL creatures were originally vegetarian. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Gen 1:30

Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark.And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth ; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. Gen 8:20-21

Four-legged insects!
Be sure to watch out for those "other flying creeping things which have four feet." (I wish God wouldn't get so technical!) I guess he must mean four-legged insects. You'd think that since God made the insects, and so many of them (at least several million species), that he would know how many legs they have! But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. Lev 11:23

Isaiah, with a little help from God, makes the sun move backwards ten degrees. Now that's quite a trick. All at once, the earth stopped spinning and then reversed its direction of rotation. Or maybe the sun traveled around the earth in those days! And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz. 2 Kings 20:11

The earth rests upon pillars and doesn't move (unless God gets angry or something). Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. Job 9:6

The earth is set on foundations and it does not move. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Job 38:4

Ostriches are cruel birds who leave their eggs to die after laying them. 39:13 Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?
39:14 Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,
39:15 And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.
39:16 She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not her's: her labour is in vain without fear;
39:17 Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding. Job 39:13-17
* It is important to note that ostrich parents are most certainly not cruel and unattentive. The male scoops out a hollow for the eggs, which are incubated by the females during the day and by the darker colored male at night -- an arrangement that helps to conceal them from foes. After the eggs are hatched, they are cared for by the mother for over a month, at which time the chicks can keep up with running adults.

Epilepsy is caused by devils. Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. Matt 17:15

Special thanks to http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

I'm not trying to step on toes or belittle anyone who is fundamental in their Biblical beliefs. I'm also not trying to rattle anyone's faith in Christianity. I'm just trying to explain why I can't put my faith in a diety. If I've offended, please accept my apology.

[plumpudding]

Thanks for explaining your POV, Quiet Tempest.

[Nikiwi]

I know this was a couple of days ago, but I have news on the Abraham/incest thing. Quiet Tempest, that verse you gave in Genesis 20 was out of context. When Abraham said that Sarah was his sister, they were in Egypt. Sarah was so beautiful, that Abraham thought that if the Egyptians knew he was her husband, they would kill him and take her. So, he said that she was his sister, but then they were found out and kicked out of Egypt. Just FYI.

[Quiet Tempest]

Thanks for the Genesis 20 info, Nikiwi.

What about Exodus 6:20?
And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram were an hundred and thirty and seven years.

[ShadedSkies]

I think - again not sure here - that breakmyfall was talking about the people who didn't believe in God after reading that guy's essay being stubborn. Not just any old dude walking down the street who doesn't believe in God. Am I right, breakmyfall?

I'm not sure but if it's the case, i'm sorry for getting carried away *lol* anyway, it woudln't change that much, even though i'll read this thesis, i have my own beliefs and my opinion wouldn't change just by reading smthg about the existence of God. ;)
You can't convince people on such subjective matters..as i said before, it's a question of beliefs, of faith and noone can convince anyone of the existence of God.

[Liia]

It is my belief that when we die, we survive death only through our loved ones memories and any marks we may have left in life. Our physical bodies die, decompose, and feed the grasses we once tred on. I don't find this depressing. My meaning in life to lead a happy life and bring forth young in order to let them experience that same joy. If you think your life is meaningless and depressing, imagine what our animal brethren might be thinking. You can't honestly think that animals don't communicate and have feelings of their own. Whale pods, wolf packs, bird flocks.. do you think they feel like they've lead meaningful lives?

My thoughts exactly. Quiet Tempest - I couldn't have said it better myself. :coolguy:

After reading that "A Mind To Kill" article, I don't know whether I should laugh or cry, the arrogance (and ignorance) is just overwhelming. Makes me want to throw something.

But I won't, I'm not an animal as this person so easily claims.

It's funny how things work out, the one thing that is suppose to bring peace, brings more war and destruction than anything else.

You gotta love religion.(Or you'll go to hell!)

[plumpudding]

Just for everybody in general.
When the Bible gives examples of people committing sins, like incest or murder, it is NOT condoning it. Except for Jesus, the people in the Bible were human, they made mistakes and they did wrong things. They were not perfect and anyone who believes that they were is incorrect.
They did wrong things, they made mistakes, but God still chose to use them for his purpose. THat is the great part about God. He is loving, forgiving, patient and gracious. If you don't believe me, read the New Testament, especially one of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). Or look at all of the times God forgave and saved the Israelites in Judges and the rest of the Old Testament.

This is for Quiet Tempest. This is my last post, because our discussion has gone in circles. We are both too stubborn to change our minds, so I don't see much of a point. These last things are to hopefully explain to others reading that there is more than one way to interpret the Bible.

Do we have a truce?

Yes, God gave us plants to eat, but he did not say those were the only things they could eat.

When God speaks of flying, creeping things with four legs, I'm pretty sure he was referring to bats, not bugs.

Genesis 7:2 (God to Noah on what to bring into the ark) "Take along SEVEN pairs of each animal that I have approved for eating and sacrificing and take one pair of each of the others."

Yes, God did perform quite a trick in reversing the Earth's rotation ten degrees, but he did close to the same thing when he stopped the sun in the sky in Joshua. He is omnipotent. That means he can do anything.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 New Living Translation. "History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new."

The foundations and pillars of the earth God was referring to were the tectonic plates that do move.

Ostrich could have been a translational error, I don't know.

[daisygirl]

Im a person of faith :)

[breakmyfall]

I think - again not sure here - that breakmyfall was talking about the people who didn't believe in God after reading that guy's essay being stubborn. Not just any old dude walking down the street who doesn't believe in God. Am I right, breakmyfall?

you are correct. yeah i should have worded myslef better. my appologies.

and i know that ALL the people who didn't believe in God before reading his thesis, now do. and he is looking to get it published. it is amazing and understandable. mixed with the teachings of Thomas Aquinas, Philosophy, and Basic Science (YES! he uses science to prove God) he has been able to only reassure my faith in God.

[Nikiwi]

Wow. I HAVE to read that! What's the guy's name? Have you read the Purpose Driven Life? It's also really good, though, it's not really proving the existence of God. It's more showing Christians what their purpose in this life is.

[Quiet Tempest]

My thoughts exactly. Quiet Tempest - I couldn't have said it better myself. :coolguy:

After reading that "A Mind To Kill" article, I don't know whether I should laugh or cry, the arrogance (and ignorance) is just overwhelming. Makes me want to throw something.

But I won't, I'm not an animal as this person so easily claims.

It's funny how things work out, the one thing that is suppose to bring peace, brings more war and destruction than anything else.

You gotta love religion.(Or you'll go to hell!)

Thanks for reading it. It’s ludicrous! It blows my mind that there are people out there that truly believe that rubbish!

Just for everybody in general.
When the Bible gives examples of people committing sins, like incest or murder, it is NOT condoning it. Except for Jesus, the people in the Bible were human, they made mistakes and they did wrong things. They were not perfect and anyone who believes that they were is incorrect.
They did wrong things, they made mistakes, but God still chose to use them for his purpose. THat is the great part about God. He is loving, forgiving, patient and gracious. If you don't believe me, read the New Testament, especially one of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). Or look at all of the times God forgave and saved the Israelites in Judges and the rest of the Old Testament.

This is for Quiet Tempest. This is my last post, because our discussion has gone in circles. We are both too stubborn to change our minds, so I don't see much of a point. These last things are to hopefully explain to others reading that there is more than one way to interpret the Bible.

Do we have a truce?


The Bible might not condone incest, but it certainly has no issue with murder (so long as God said to do it). :( There are countless acts of cruelty in the Bible done for or by God. Genocide is murder.

Truce? Plum, I’m not on some crusade against you and yours. I don’t feel that our discussion has gone in circles. Quite the contrary, we are both providing our individual (and sometimes shared) points of view. I enjoy friendly debate. I am not being stubborn, I am being passionate. I absolute love learning more about theology, because it’s so interesting. However, there are a few sects that I would love to discredit, present company excluded, of course :). Fundamentalists, who use the words of the Bible against others.

Like, Jack Chick..

He created “Chick Tracts” that fundamental Christians leave in public places. These tracts are awful things! They condemn nonChristians and fuel intolerance! Take a look at some of them if you don’t believe me:

"Are Roman Catholics Christian?" (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5023/5023_01.asp)
According to this tract, Roman Catholics are not real Christians and Jesus hates Catholics. *rolls eyes*

“Allah Had No Son” (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp)
According to this tract, Muslims, who apparently worship a moon god, are planning to invade and overtake America. Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy, and forgiveness, and the majority have nothing to do with the extremely grave events which have come to be associated with their faith. Muslims believe in a chain of prophets starting with Adam and including Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Elias, Jonah, John the Baptist, and Jesus, peace be upon them. But God's final message to man, a reconfirmation of the eternal message and a summing-up of all that has gone before was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad through Gabriel. Islam may seem exotic or even extreme in the modern world. Perhaps this is because religion does not dominate everyday life in the West today, whereas Muslims have religion always uppermost in their minds, and make no division between secular and sacred.

“Bewitched” (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0045/0045_01.asp)
According to this tract, the occult, paganism, and New Age-realated products are evil anyone associated with these things is leading a wicked life. They’re devils, they’re on drugs, they’re money-hungry, and they’re uncaring. Paganism is an earth based religion that preceded Christianity and is still growing today despite the fact that fundamentalist Christians have sought to wipe them out. Pagans are polytheistic they have gods and goddesses of the forests, the sea and of all aspects of nature. Examples of early paganism, can be seen in ancient Greek and Roman religions, as well as in ancient Goddess worship and Druidic religions.

Pat Robertson promotes religious intolerance:

"The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." -- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, December 30, 1981

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. 'What do you mean?' the media challenged me. 'You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, 'Yes, they are.' -- Pat Robertson, The New World Order, 1991

Jerry Falwell, another popular fundamentalist, also preaches intolerance and hate:

“If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.”
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell

“The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.”
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell, blaming civil libertarians for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, to which Rev. Pat Robertson agreed

“The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.”
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell, Sermon, July 4, 1976

“The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible,without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etc.”
-- Jerry Falwell, Finding Inner Peace and Strength

“Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan.”
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell
(LOL!! Wtf?!)

It is people like this, that promote intolerance and hate in the media, that I absolutely hate. Hate is a strong word, that’s why I chose it. These people condone violence done to nonChristians by quoting scriptures and saying that such things wouldn’t have happened if the victim were an upstanding Christian, as they apparently are.

For me, these people are prime examples of bad Christians. That doesn’t mean that I feel this way about all Christians. Christian theology is, for the most part, a beautiful story. Too many people feel the need to proselytize every nonChristian they come upon, though, and that’s a no-no in my book. You should never force someone else to believe as you do. It’s just plain rude. However, for fundamentalists, the Bible commands that, as a Christian, you go out and convert everyone by whatever means necessary (some methods with fatal results) and not doing so will force God to smite you. Now, I understand how “witnessing” works. I am a preacher’s daughter and was raised in church. I was a Christian until age 12. Since then, I joined in several “religious diversity” groups at high school and focused on learning about other religions even though I’m not religious, myself. I think it’s fascinating.

If you feel like I’m attacking you or your beliefs, please understand nothing I say should be thought of as an attack. I like everybody here and I enjoy seeing everyone’s perspectives and talking about them along with my own. Feel free to do the same with me.

[Nikiwi]

This is from Danielle(plumpudding): I completely understand that you're not attacking me or on a crusade. You're cool.

Me now:
Yes, it's people like the ones you quoted that give Christians a bad name(from what I've heard from my non-Christian friends). I mean, it's impossible to force someone to believe in your God. You can pressure them to come to church with you and say the prayer and do all the "good" Christian things, but if they don't mean it, then it's useless. That's what it is for me. It's a personal decision that no one can make but you(the general "you"). It's sad that most people have seen those kinds of Christians, because I've met several people who have an all-out hate for Christians in general. *sigh*But I mean, if you're not attacking Christianity or hate all